junk-rigged scamp?

  • 17 Apr 2021 22:08
    Reply # 10323369 on 10322841
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Howard wrote:

    A great discussion... I'm enjoying ever bit of it!!   nobody pulling their punches, but no ill will.... I wish politics could be this civil ;-)


    Howard

    I guess tub was an imprecise description on the SCAMP. A Dutch wooden shoe would have been better. The reason for my reaction (..yes, I was way too blunt, sorry, sorry...) was that the article promised so much. Only afterwards did I realise that it was an article written by an enthusiast, not the designer’s description.

    My fear was that such words may seduce a family of four, without too much experience, to step aboard and then suddenly find themselves in the water with the boat on its side. That may be good fun for people used to capsizing dinghies, and in temperate waters. In my waters at 59° N, such an incident would not call for laughter and smiles, except on particularly warm days.

    Conclusion:
    If I were given a SCAMP, I would be grateful and then go sailing in it  -  but before I did that, I would tie a generous ‘fender sausage’ around its gunwale. I hope that this would provide enough buoyancy up there to prevent the SCAMP from parking on its side. If it were still reluctant to self-right, I would add lead to the sides of that shallow keel (10-30kg) until the thing stopped misbehaving.

    As for rig, I guess I would go for a gaff cat-rig.

    Now I have poured a large dram of turbocharged potatoes (Lysholm Linie-Aquavit) to cure a possible cold (..prevention is the best cure...).

    To your health!
    Arne


  • 17 Apr 2021 19:04
    Reply # 10322919 on 10322060

    Mauro,

    Thanks for the link. I think that all those three Sable-models, ranging from 2.7 to 3.9m, look good. According to the specifications, they all self-right.
    Now, you get some  and you give some with these small craft. The designer has managed to avoid the use of centre-boards. The downside is that the Sables draw 45 to 55cm at the heel, so will not fit anyone’s use.
    I don’t know how much they cost, but they are probably not that cheap, if fitted with rig and electric motor.
    I bet these vessels would do fine with any (not too tall) sailing rig  -  including a junkrig.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Hi Arne,


    Thank you very much for your opinion...and sorry for parasitizing the S.C.A.M.P thread!

    Ciao

    Mauro

  • 17 Apr 2021 18:28
    Reply # 10322841 on 10309125

    A great discussion... I'm enjoying ever bit of it!!   nobody pulling their punches, but no ill will.... I wish politics could be this civil ;-)

    I agree with Arne that Scamp looks like a tub.... it is an attractive  boat functionally if not aesthetically.   To expect a dinghy to self right with zero effort seems unrealistic to me.  I've flipped boats many times, and the boats I've flipped had to be brought to shore and bailed out........ off shore this is not practical.  Scamp looks like an excellent adventure dinghy.  Long Steps is far more attractive, but a LOT more boat.  Neither are light weight for their size.... but that apparently is what it takes.


        Realistically getting junk rig penetration into the dinghy world is a worthy goal.... assuming it is appropriate and beneficial.    Personally, I'd like to see a rig based on Paul's Aerojunk for the simple fact that the sail is ultra simple to build and yields a camber panel.  Making a few doubled battens looks like childs play.  On this scale they could be made from creek bottom willows, and probably serve as well as something more sophisticated, and the sail itself could be made from almost any material that was handy.


  • 17 Apr 2021 15:13
    Reply # 10322428 on 10320230
    Anonymous wrote:


    (My main concern would be difficulty climbing back in, without a boarding ladder, over those high topsides.)

    I just noticed, at about 2:38 in the video you linked, Graeme, the sailor reaches into the boat and pulls out what looks like a stirrup attached to a line. I think he puts his left foot into it which enables him to push down on the stirrup until he can pull himself aboard. Note too, he has a rope on each side, attached to the bow that runs under the boat to the stern. Purpose? In this video, he doesn't touch it. He grasps a white line on the deck, attached to a deck cleat but doesn't use it. Safety backup?
    Last modified: 17 Apr 2021 17:33 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Apr 2021 12:56
    Reply # 10322060 on 10321403
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Mauro wrote:

     boat in action

    https://www.lagazelledessables.fr

    https://youtu.be/JFb9d-dMb2w

    https://youtu.be/5ghwEApOqUE 

    I'd be curious to hear your opinions on this...to my inexperienced eye it looks like the only thing it's missing is a nice junk sail!



    Hi Mauro

    Mauro,

    Thanks for the link. I think that all those three Sable-models, ranging from 2.7 to 3.9m, look good. According to the specifications, they all self-right.
    Now, you get some  and you give some with these small craft. The designer has managed to avoid the use of centre-boards. The downside is that the Sables draw 45 to 55cm at the heel, so will not fit everyone.
    I don’t know how much they cost, but they are probably not that cheap, if fitted with rig and electric motor.
    I bet these vessels would do fine with any (not too tall) sailing rig  -  including a junkrig.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Last modified: 18 Apr 2021 12:34 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 17 Apr 2021 11:19
    Reply # 10321781 on 10309125

    There is a company in Wales, Swallow yachts.com that make a 17ft waterballasted "dinghy", self-righteable from 90 degrees with a self draining cockpit and if totally inverted has a buoyancy tank which will slowly fill to bring it back to 90 degrees for righting and then drains into the self draining cockpit. 

    A 17-foot "Baycruiser".  They used to sell a kit, but not plans. Not sure if they still sell the kit.

    Not junk rigged but I'm sure it could be.

    Might be worth a look also as a large family dinghy

  • 17 Apr 2021 08:07
    Reply # 10321403 on 10309125

    It`s amazing how much can learn from the JRA forums!

    I've been following the dinghy forums closely because I'd like to find a stable and safe one for day sailing with my family on Austrian lakes or near the North Adriatic coast. So I discovered (thanks to you!) the dinghy cruising association and the designs of John Welsford (whose SEI plans I purchased). In my research I found only one unsinkable dinghy, equipped with water ballast, able to right itself after a knock downand to face conditions difficult for other dinghies: the Gazelle des Sables.

    These are the addresses of the manufacturer's home page and two videos of the boat in action

    https://www.lagazelledessables.fr

    https://youtu.be/JFb9d-dMb2w

    https://youtu.be/5ghwEApOqUE 

    I'd be curious to hear your opinions on this...to my inexperienced eye it looks like the only thing it's missing is a nice junk sail!



    Hi Mauro




    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

  • 17 Apr 2021 06:18
    Reply # 10321100 on 10309125

    The writer even noted that a modified Scamp was to make a try on Cape Horn, no less.

    The attempt was Magellan Strait I believe and it was attempted, but the winds down there are so strong that the boat was literally blown ashore.

  • 16 Apr 2021 22:15
    Reply # 10320230 on 10309125

    The objective fact is that the Champ will not self-right after a knock-down, even after the builders have taken the trouble to build it with water ballast in it. This could give some users serious or even fatal trouble. (Champ = SCAMP).

    Arne: That’s nonsense.

    Who has claimed it is self-righting? Is this a feature one would expect of a 12’ dinghy?

    To suggest it is unsafe or could cause “fatal trouble” is so far from being likely it can only be described as nonsense. Most people seem to think that safety is one of the features of SCAMP and it looks pretty safe to me.

    Here is another equally subjective statement: The video presumably referred to, in which the boat appears to sail quite well in conditions which would challenge any small boat, shows that it is difficult to capsize even while sailing on its beam-end with an adult standing to leeward, and it is righted easily by merely pulling down on the off-centre board, from in the water.

    (My main concern would be difficulty climbing back in, without a boarding ladder, over those high topsides.)


    I know a little bit about righting a dinghy after a capsize, having learned to sail in a 7’ over-canvassed but fully buoyant boat called a “P class”. The sailing clubs used to stage “capsize races” for them, where it was compulsory to capsize, recover and continue at least once on each leg of the race. It was possible to do a 360 degree roll, recover by climbing over the bottom, and sail on without getting one’s feet wet (and sloping cockpit sides ensured no water in the boat when it was righted). If a dinghy has enough buoyancy to do that, it will be stable at 90 degrees and yes, a little effort is required to get that mast back up again out of the water – a small boy or girl in the water would need to climb up and put full weight onto the centreboard to get it to roll back upright. (But no need to call for the ambulance!)


    I would surely like to see the design for a dinghy with 200mm of draft and self-righting by means of water ballast (a miracle). That will surely be a safe boat and hopefully will not look too much like a gumboot.

    Edit: I just saw Arne's latest post and, of course, the idea of taking a boat like this around Cape Horn is equally nonsensical, and promotion of THAT is certainly questionable. Arne's respect for the sea, and aversion to capsize, is good. Still the implication that this little boat is in some way unsafe is not right, and does need to be countered. SCAMP is not quite "my cup of tea" either, but my evaluation is that it sails quite well and for its size it is exceptionally weatherly.

    PS Welsford has also designed micro-cruisers for long distance voyaging, Swaggie for example: not quite my cup of tea either, but it has a ballasted keel and - surprise surprise -  a junk rig.


    Last modified: 17 Apr 2021 05:03 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Apr 2021 21:54
    Reply # 10320199 on 10309125
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Horses for courses, sure, David.
    It is just that the link below, to the Scamp which you showed us, soon let us know that that boat took part in a quite tough race including crossing a 40-mile wide  Strait of Juan de Fuca . The writer even noted that a modified Scamp was to make a try on Cape Horn, no less. Only further down in the article was pottering around on Columbia River brought up.

    My last boat, Frøken Sørensen, was a large, unballasted dinghy with a cuddy. Luckily, the user manual (in DDR-Deutsch) followed the boat. It made clear that after 83° heel, the boat would fall over. I kept this in mind, and sailed here with respect, and eventually I replaced her with the IF, Ingeborg (what a change). Last summer the new owner  -  in their third season  -  managed to flip Frøken Sørensen. Lots of commotion, police, ambulance, etc, etc. This is why I dislike that a boat which is being ’sold’ as a hardy vehicle, falls over on its side and needs help to get back on its feet. Scamp clearly has a tumble-home. If she had been given something closer to FanShi or Halibut’s mid section, combined with her water ballast, she would have self-righted un-aided.

    Arne


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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