Catamaran conversion

  • 03 Apr 2022 20:52
    Reply # 12692393 on 12688183
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Ivan,

    I surely don’t want to preach The Gospel of Stayed Rigs, not me. I am quite happy with having free-standing masts. I also know that some catamarans have been successfully rigged that way.

    My reason for airing the ‘stayed-rig idea’, was that this vessel is so special. Deciding for a rig for a boat is like solving an equation. The parameters of this 10m cat surely differs from the monohulls I have played with  -  and also some cats I’ve seen:

    • ·         This motorsailer-like vessel has probably never done any (engineless) short-tacking to windward, and never will. I regard it mostly as a motor vessel with an aux. rig, so a close reach is probably the best it will do. I still think that an easily handled JR, hybrid or pure, stayed or unstayed, will save at least half of the fuel costs  -  or double the range.
    • ·         The great beam makes it possible to stay the rig, period. In case the interior or deck is unfit for an unstayed mast, this could well be a plan B. The downside is that one has to fit chainplates for the shrouds.
    • ·         A catamaran doesn’t have such a firm speed limit, so will benefit more than a heavy monohull from tacking downwind. Less reason for squaring out the mainsail. Btw, with a two-tail upper-lower sheet one is free to ease the sheets out until both the yard and the boom gently touch the aft shroud. This in strong contrast to the high-twist gaff sail in the same situation.
    • ·         With a stayed rig, one suddenly has a forestay, begging for a jib, either a roller jib or one that is hanked on. The last one can have both a halyard and a downhaul lead to the cockpit. The catamaran has much better and safer deckspace than a mono, so an occasional deck job is less frightening.

    Conclusion:
    If you find the vessel to be capable for your intended sort of cruising, and you are willing to run the diesel a good del against the wind, I think the suggested one-masted hybrid JR would improve the vessel, both handling-wise and performance-wise (compared to that ketch rig).


    Below you find a lower version. That mainsail happens to be the same as the one sitting on my Ingeborg.

    Arne


    Last modified: 03 Apr 2022 21:07 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Apr 2022 16:51
    Reply # 12692237 on 12688183
    Deleted user

    Thank you all for your valuable advice. I am waiting to hear back about sailing characteristics and a floor plan.

    Going by the photos I have of the interior, I originally thought the fore cabins could accommodate either 2 tabernacles in each hull or one in the center. There already is a bulkhead dividing the cabins and there are lockers in the hulls I would be willing to give up. Unfortunately this location seems too far forward.

    I don’t think I want to keep the stayed mast, having unstayed masts, to me, is the cornerstone of the junk rig. I would compromise by not having a tabernacle and bury the mast foot in the boat if that was more affordable/feasible, but a conversion makes most sense to me, if the masts end up unstayed.

    I can not figure out from the interior photos if the original mast location could be reinforced for a single unstayed mast/tabernacle. For a double mast setup, the hulls seem to have chain plates that I might be able to use to anchor to the hull with. From there I could reinforce the deck and sole following a bulkhead. Not sure if this makes any sense, I’ve attempted a sketch to illustrate. I have no idea if this could be sufficiently strong. I might also be able to tie into the original mast foot with a beam going across the cabin deck?

    3 files
  • 03 Apr 2022 16:01
    Reply # 12692200 on 12688183
    Deleted user

    Being interested only in multihulls at this point.  I am enjoying this thread.   Lots of good questions being asked and ideas tossed around.    Here are my thoughts so far for what they are worth........... not very much really, but I'll share them anyway.


         Arne's solution looks to me like only "obviously workable" solution with the existing lack of information.    Neither the first, nor the last stayed junk rig.   If as was stated one of the main purchase criteria was being able to install a junk rig, that has essentially been answered.

           Without a great deal more information or at least good photos or video showing more interior detail from which conclusions about structure and access to spaces may be drawn, the unstayed options are really just pure speculation at this point.


           To my eye this looks like a very comfortable roomy cat with good interior spaces judging from the exterior, and excellent all around view.   As Graham pointed out, it looks like a motorsailor, which is fine depending on your "mission".  Probably a wonderful boat to take the wife and kids up the inside passage or explore the lovely BC coast from Vancouver Island north or wander the San Juan Islands and Puget Sound.  The huge inland reservoirs in your area, or the ICW....if one was on the other coast.   A safe amount of sail area considering it's beam.  The "instant reefing" of the junk mainsail combined with a roller furling genny take this to the next level.

           A catamaran with a shallow draft........ means that you can get into places other boats cannot, and can probably take the ground.......  Hopefully it has LAR keels.    The catamaran layout means not only can you take the ground most likely, but you can anchor out comfortably where others are rolling madly, and means that cooking in the galley, and other activities will not be an ordeal or unsafe either under weigh or at anchor.   The beam is narrow enough that you could probably take a slip, and haul outs will not be limited to very  large equipment.  

           It doesn't strike me from what I've seen of it so far as a boat I would choose for voyaging across oceans........... but others might feel differently.  After all there are Prouts all over the world, and nothing about them strikes me as suitable for voyaging.  I would be very interested in bridge deck clearance, keels, etc.  


                                                      H.W.

  • 03 Apr 2022 09:09
    Reply # 12692040 on 12688183

    This kind of conversion is outside of my experience, so I'm only qualified to ask questions:

    What is known about the accommodation layout in the hulls? Is a biplane rig even possible, with either the high balance of a split rig or the low balance of an unsplit sail, without spoiling the access to berths, stowage etc?

    What is known about windward performance? I would expect it to be poor, with that much windage and that little draught (and apparently no board(s) ). So, with plenty of engine power to get to windward when necessary, I'd be thinking about a rig optimised for reaching and running, when there's plenty of wind. I guess that means low AR, and no stays (sorry, Arne), with a single mast in a tabernacle, as has already been suggested.

  • 02 Apr 2022 22:13
    Reply # 12691688 on 12688183
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Wonderful, I would have placed a bet that Arne would come up with a new and creative idea! Strikingly purposeful and rakish to look at with its high-peaked yard and distinctive roach.


    Arne, the only thing which puts me off that idea is that such a major (major) advantage of a junk rig is the ability to use an unstayed mast, the ability to "spread your wings" out to 90 degrees when running downwind, or even more and "sail by the lee", the sail and battens unhampered by standing rigging. It seems a pity to have a junk rig and miss out on that significant advantage.

    And as for stay sails, great as an extra for long cross wind legs, or with a boom for downwind. I am afraid junk rig has made me lazy, and I will now never be bothered fooling around with overlapping staysails when tacking, ever again. (The junk mainsail dictates that the staysail is overlapping and can not be self-tending when tacking).


    But all things come with a price - and the rewards in this case are, potentially, many.

    On the plus side - a multihull, of all types, because of its very wide beam, does enable a very simple (spreaderless) stayed rig, and this is in harmony with the extra stiffness of a multihull and its need otherwise for an especially strong mast installation if it were to be free-standing. And being simple and spreaderless, means this stayed mast is OK for a junk rig with regard to mast parrels that otherwise might be in conflict with spreaders and intermediate stays.

    So, a multihull with a central rig might be the special case that warrants a stayed mast with simple standing rigging. The standing rigging allows a tight forestay and hence the ability to carry a decent masthead staysail for use in light weather - and the greatest advantage of all in this particular case: if Ivan is working to a budget this idea might well allow Ivan to make use of the existing main mast and its existing tabernacle and the existing staysail. [subject to more information about the mast dimensions, which we don't know yet, but very possible] It is possible that the existing mainmast position could be used too, and no structural or accommodation changes needed either. In fact, all that might be needed might be to replace the existing mainsail with a suitable Johanna-type junk sail.

    That's really something to think about, and would make that vessel not just capable of being converted to junk rig, but eminently suitable and, on the face of it, potentially the cheapest and easiest conversion possible!

    (At the cost of a complete fresh start, the biplane or side-by-side idea has merit too, I think.

    And Mark's suggestion is dead right, keep that in mind too.)


    Note: that existing tabernacle is not suitable for a free standing mast, but fine for a stayed mast, I have had this arrangement on half a dozen different boats with stayed masts, in the past. With that arrangement and a bit of power from your anchor winch, you can raise and lower that mast with no other equipment required than a pole (the stay sail boom?) for a strut.


    Question: Who designed this thing Ivan? A 10m bridge-deck catamaran with standing headroom in the deck house would normally look rather high-wooded and ugly - but the stylised deckhouse in this case is clever and actually quite appealing to the eye. I am impressed - from the start I quite liked the look of it as a comfortable motor-sailer. I actually like its moderate ketch rig too, it looks right on that boat. The designer knows a thing or two. I note the stay sail boom and non-overlapping staysail - unfashionable these days, but in fact extremely practical for a cruising boat, for a number of reasons. Unfortunately you would have to lose that, and possibly install sheet winches with Arne's hybrid rig idea. (However, nothing can beat a junk rig for practicality and ease of handling).

    Last modified: 03 Apr 2022 12:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Apr 2022 21:55
    Reply # 12691682 on 12688183
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Could this be something, a hybrid rig with a stayed mast?

    Arne


  • 02 Apr 2022 19:37
    Reply # 12691596 on 12688183

    Sail her with the present rig and assess where the balance is.

    The mizzen may not be doing anything going upwind, so then don’t take into account with your new plan 

  • 02 Apr 2022 11:56
    Reply # 12691172 on 12688183
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    First of all, I have to say that the “top 3 panels SJR” that I superimposed on your photo just doesn’t look right. As I explained, it was drawn purely to make the point of where the mast might be placed to accommodate a 33% balance sail, with its geometric centre coinciding with the geometric centre of the old sail plan. And I was trying to copy the outline you had sketched. Personally, I don’t like that ultra low aspect ratio plan form, its too much of an extreme, unless you have a special reason for wanting to get that much sail area on one relatively short mast. I take it that was not your intention, so I will leave it there, with the summary that a higher aspect ratio, more normal looking split junk sail – with the geometric centre at close to that spot, will dictate a mast position about where shown, or very slightly aft of it if it is higher aspect ratio.

    So what do we learn from this? The highest possible sail balance (about 33%) will dictate a mast position very close to or right on the position of the current mainmast – as far as we can judge from putting rough sketches onto a photograph. (Or, directly each side of that position if you are thinking  of a side-by-side, or "biplane"). That’s about as far back as you can go on that boat. 33% is probably too much balance for a contiguous sail, so if that mast position (or mast positions if side-by-side) suit you (taking account of internal layout, position of bulkheads and structure for supporting a free standing mast etc) then a split junk rig is probably dictated.

    Let us go to the other extreme now and consider a 10% balance sail, and see if we can find the other end of the spectrum of mast positions. This would be a contiguous sail of some kind, for sure. The principles for mast placement (with respect to geometric centre of the original rig) may be slightly different for a contiguous sail so you should get advice from someone like Arne, but I can give you a very rough indication of the range of mast positions available to you for a single mast junk rig (or side-by-side configuration) with the following diagram.



    On the left, a 33% balance, low yard angle sail, mast positioned approximately at the original main mast position. Split sail. It’s a copy of Amiina Mk 2 sail designed by Slieve.

    On the right: a 10% balance high yard angle sail, mast positioned somewhere between the first two fore cabin windows. Contiguous sail. its one of Arne’s, a low aspect ratio (1.8) Johanna type.

    I haven’t bothered looking at sail area or done any calculations. Its purely to give you an apples-with-apples comparison so you can see the implications of sail dynamic balance, with regard to approximate mast position on that boat, so you can judge if you think a junk rig could be installed on this catamaran. To help you to decide if this catamaran is going to be the one for you. Whatever rig you choose, mast position will likely be within the range shown in the above diagram.  (The masts shown here are about 10 M above top of tabernacle, but would be lower of course if the rigs were biplanes. And you might note that the high yard angle sail has a little more area than the low yard angle sail for the same mast length).

    You could crib the mast just a little bit further forward, with an even lower balance sail, if you wanted to talk to David about his Weaverbird soft wingsail, which is, I would say, leading edge in junk sails.


    (Imagine a side-by-side junk wing rig, how cool that would be. A real biplane). I expect the mast(s) would be close to the forward cabin first window, in placement, in the case of a weaverbird sail, as it has only a very small percentage of the sail area in  front of the mast (ultra low balance).

    So there you have it. That’s about the range of choice you will have.

    If you need to get the mast right at the front of the cabin, as you originally proposed, then I think you will need a mizzen mast to make it balance. (ie helm balance).

    You are still a long way from designing an actual sail plan, and there are others more expert who can help you with that.

    Before you can get down to something more precise, there are some things you should do if you can: (1) sail the boat a little bit with her existing rig, and make sure you are happy with the helm balance. If the boat seems to have lee helm, or excessive weather helm, the time of changing the rig will be the time to fine tune where the new sail geometric centre will be positioned.  (2) Obtain, or make, a sail plan showing the current rig, with accurate measurements of the sail dimensions and the precise position of the current masts. These two steps will give you or the sail designer the ability to pinpoint exactly the geometric centre of the current rig, and provide a good starting point in the design of a new sail plan.  A photograph is not really good enough.

    (Sail area, aspect ratio, sail type etc will also make tiny changes to where the ideal mast position should be. The designer of the sail you choose can help you with that, when the time comes).

    You ask whether a split junk rig would be suitable for a twin-mast side-by-side or "biplane"  arrangement. Well I would rather Slieve answer that question, I can only make a couple of comments and give you an amateur’s opinion. When Slieve designed the SJR one of his goals was to get good camber and lift in the very front part of the sail, and try to get efficiency to windward comparable to a modern Bermudan sail. I would say he has got pretty close to it. Anyway, there is no point in it if there are two sails and the airflow of one interferes with the other -  which is something to consider in regard to ketch or schooner rig. But, and you can check with Slieve, I can’t see how there would be any problem there with side-by-side sails. On a broad reach, maybe? Perhaps someone will chime in and advise.

    Anyway,  it has been done. The first junk I ever sailed on (only a few years ago) was just such a rig. I had the pleasure and privilege of an outing on Oryx, at the time owned by Pete Hill who had designed the rig, with some input from Slieve I believe. It is quite a different type of split sail from the SJR (its a type of "aerojunk" rig) but it was a junk split sail biplane catamaran, and it went like a rocket.


    Note the very low rig, but ample sail area. These masts are housed in sunk tabernacles which Pete designed and built.

    I suggest you contact Pete and ask him if there are likely to be any issues with a biplane SJR. My own unqualified opinion is: if all the other factors harmonise (internal accommodation, deck structure) I would say it’s a great idea. You get a low rig, with the sail area divided between two rigs – the sails can be optimum aspect ratio and each sail smaller and easier to handle than one larger sail, and you could cram on a little extra sail area too. No doubt there are pros and cons of biplane rig catamarans, but there are enough of them around you should be able to contact one or two people who have actually done it and can advise you.

    Hope that helps you to make a decision.

    One further comment:

    Ivan wrote: "When I look at smaller ~20 foot mono hulls, their JR masts seem small and simple and light. Easier to handle, cheaper, install etc. "

    Yes, but be careful of drawing conclusions there. You might have a pair of masts that are the same length as a 20' mononhuil mast, but they will need to be stouter. A 20' monohuil heels over in a gust - your boat won't, it will be stiff and will require stronger masts than the equivalent length mast on a light monohull. I doubt very much if twin masts would be a cheaper option, but I expect it would give you ease of handling in some respects, because dealing with much smaller sails, easier to hoist etc.


    Edit: looking ahead to the next post (from Mark) suggesting try sailing the boat without the mizzen, in order to asses whether it is actually necessary. An excellent suggestion, further reason for getting familiar with the existing rig before making changes. If that boat goes well to windward without the mizzen, then you could consider placing the geometric centre (and hence the mast(s)) of the new rig further forward.

    Last modified: 02 Apr 2022 23:19 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Apr 2022 03:39
    Reply # 12690954 on 12688183
    Deleted user

    Thank you for your wonderful amazing write up Graeme.

    My sketch of the sail was not meant to be to scale, it was to illustrate where I thought the mast could go. The geometric center from your diagram does show a single mast can be much further back indeed. I might be able to use the original mast location.

    I do mean to bury the tabernacle as far as possible to the very bottom of the bridge deck, and reinforce the foot and the deck protrusion. I will ask the listing agent for a floor plan of the vessel and sailing characteristics.

    I have also been thinking more about having one mast in each hull. Would it still make sense to have a split junk for each mast? When I look at smaller ~20 foot mono hulls, their JR masts seem small and simple and light. Easier to handle, cheaper, install etc.

    This vessel is very well powered with a single Mercedes 200 diesel OM615 driving 2 hydraulic sail drives.

  • 01 Apr 2022 15:59
    Reply # 12690105 on 12688183
    Deleted user

    Graham:

          A wonderfully comprehensive post filled with good insights and sound advice.......I thoroughly enjoyed reading it!!     We have far too few junk rigged multihulls.     Not having done a single conversion yet, my own thoughts could be said to "not be worth the paper they are printed on".    It would be very interesting and  useful to know many more  structural details, interior layout, and sailing characteristics of this boat.  

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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