Van de Stadt 36 Seal - JR conversion

  • 16 May 2026 22:51
    Reply # 13632577 on 9338306

    Sorry Arne, I wasn’t taking a pop at you. I’m not trying to be a competitive sales man, but simply trying to help someone who has expressed an interest. The problem is that you are so good at helping others, and I’m really retired from junk rigs. I’ve just bought a new boat. It’s an IOM and is a full 5cm longer than my other one but weighs 4 kg to the DF95’s 2kg, and is so much nicer to sail. Even at my stage of life I’m still learning.

    Cheers, Slieve.


  • 16 May 2026 21:18
    Reply # 13632554 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Here is my last proposed sailplan again, this time shown deeply reefed to only three panels. I have often sailed with only these panels set, either when entering the harbour, when trolling for mackerel or when the breeze suddenly increases. I am very glad I have kept this Hasler-McLeod type top section, as it gives me so much extra sail area for a given mast length.
    This has led me to add the Fan Up Preventer. I can live with the moderate extra attention this needs.
    The FUP, the YHP and THP are not being touched unless I am to alter sail area.

    As for the HK parrels; these are standing parrels. After initial setting up (takes 2 or 3 outings), I just forget about them. The job of the HK parrels these days is actually just to stabilise the sail and make it believe it is flat. Simple as that.

    Cheers
    Arne

    PS: Don’t forget, I am biased too...

    (full size diagram in Arne's sketches, section 9)

  • 16 May 2026 17:57
    Reply # 13632523 on 9338306

    Hi Thomas,

    There are an interesting number of points here, and possibly some simple answers.

    Firstly, I don’t see why the Mk2 rig would not scale up well to 65sq.m. I have a spreadsheet which will give all the dimensions for that for the ‘standard’ shape (though I would have to check that is is complete) if you would like a copy. It may even give the broadseam depths and widths if going that way.

    As to whether to add another panel my answer is that I would not like to increase the aspect ratio too much, so might draw a rig only half a panel taller and split it into 5 parallel panels, but I will admit that I feel that 5 panels given enough reefing steps because of the rigs apparent tolerance to sail area and the advantage that with split sheeting with 2 battens per sheet then the twist can easily be controlled when reefed.

    As for additional controls for long distance cruising, the minimalist controls is one attraction of the rig. With no Hong Kong parrels, luff hauling parrels, fan up preventers you are left with a halyard, a pair of sheets, three or four combined downhaul/ batten parrels and either a yard hauling parrel or another downhaul/ yard parrel to make it work. In practice I would add shortish batten parrels to at least the top and bottom battens and to the yard for added security, and would discuss with David his comment on securing the boom (bottom batten).

    One thought I have had for long distance sailing on a junk would be to have a detachable water sail which could be clipped onto the bottom batten and held down against the deck with bungees through rings stretched from toe-rail to toe-rail. When sailing in light conditions closing the gap below the sail could give some extra drive. It could be made from spinnaker material, with a couple of small areas of window material and probably not need a slot. But as I say, just a thought.

    As for working out where the CoA of the existing multi headsail rig is, count me out.

    And don’t forget, I’m biased.

    Cheers, Slieve.


  • 16 May 2026 10:27
    Reply # 13632474 on 13632464
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Anonymous wrote:

    Thomas Nance wrote:

    Thanks Arne for the sail drawings. From what I know, it seems a sail with around 33% balance forward of the mast is needed to place the mast in the ideal location, anything less puts it in the bullhead or right where your head lays on the forward berth. 

    ...

    Thanks again for all your time



    Funny that, Thomas.
    Unless your boat differs from the plans (see below), the mast will not hit any of the bunks. However, I would consider offsetting the mast 10-15cm to port to ease the access. That will have no negative effect on sailing.

    Arne

    PS: Where did you plan to position the mast?

    Last modified: 16 May 2026 14:44 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 May 2026 08:17
    Reply # 13632464 on 9338306

    Thanks everyone for the generous sharing of information, it's a real advantage having this site and the people who fill it. 

    I wasn't sure if the converted sail area needed to match the full sail of the donor boat and it's a relief to hear that something more like 65m2 would be adequate, much better!

    If the sail area comes from the effective main and fore triangle for the old rig, then do you also use that area to calculate the original CE? That would seem at least simpler to figure out. 

    Thanks Arne for the sail drawings. From what I know, it seems a sail with around 33% balance forward of the mast is needed to place the mast in the ideal location, anything less puts it in the bullhead or right where your head lays on the forward berth. 

    Slieve, you will probably know this best, but would a design like the Amiina Mk2 sail scale well to something around 65m2? If it would, would you recommend any changes like more panels? Or more standing or running lines to help the sail drape or sit right?

    Also, regarding the mast height, it's good to know that the likely required height wouldn't be "too much" or "too heavy"

    Thanks again for all your time


  • 15 May 2026 16:02
    Reply # 13632229 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    While I was drawing the sailplans below, David T produced a posting, suggesting limiting the SA to 64sqm
    David has a good point, so I dug out another Johanna 60 master sailplan, this one with AR=2.08. When scaling it to B=6.20m, the area landed on 64.0sqm.

    I think these designs with a mast balance of  25%,  are better than my first ones (from 2020):

    • ·         The mast is now moved further away from the bow.
    • ·         The original hatch can be kept as before.
    • ·         The mast can be made lower
    • ·         The CE sits closer to the JR mast, and when running before, it will sit well within maximum beam of the boat. Easy steering downwind.
    • ·         As positioned here, with a mast balance of 25%, there is room for moving the sail a little forward or aft, to get the steering balance just right.

    To make it as offshore capable as possible I would...

    • ·         ..tie the topping lifts only 2/3 aft on the boom, and...
    • ·         fit a thin, one-meter long extension to the yard’s top, and and...
    • ·         ..fit a FUP; a fan-up preventer, and...
    • ·         ..use a separate upper and lower sheet, as David suggests
    • ·         .. and  -  possibly (if needed)  -  fit batten downhauls.

    YHP, THP and HK-parrels are already standard on my Johanna style sails.

    Cheers,
    Arne

    (full size diagram in Arne's sketches, section 9 )

    Last modified: 22 May 2026 18:06 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 May 2026 12:21
    Reply # 13632130 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Now I had a new go, this time with a mast balance increased to 25%, after learning from the two Pauls (Thompson in NZ. and Schnabel in Germaney).

    In haste, more text later,

    Arne


    (Full size diagrams in Arne's sketches, section 9)

  • 15 May 2026 10:40
    Reply # 13632123 on 9338306

    Looking at https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/seal-36/ I see that the pointy-top mast is 15.9m above LWL. With an untapered mast section and with the weight of forestay, backstay and cap shrouds added, I’d suggest that its windage and height of CG is always going to be greater than that of any JR mast, whatever the construction or material. My experience with Tystie, not quite as large as the Seal but with shoal draft and limited stability, leads me to think that excessive mast height with any form of JR is not a serious concern. In fact - more is better, as it permits a higher AR with shorter battens and yard to be used, and I came to the view that this was the best way to go, in designing a large rig. 

    The basic-triangle sail area of the Seal is quoted as being 58.27 sq m. Add 10% and we get 64 sq m, which I would consider to be quite enough for an offshore cruising boat of this displacement. An SJR of 64 sq m with battens somewhere between 5m and 6m would be practicable and manageable. I’d suggest adding one more batten to the Amiina mk 2 planform, and using upper and lower sheets, ie, three battens for each sheet. Further, I agree with Slieve that spanning the SJR-style downhauls isn't necessary or perhaps practicable in this size of sail.

    I do think that more control over the position of the boom than is provided by the usual form of SJR downhaul may well be desirable in a seaway. When scaling up the SJR to the maximum practical size for offshore cruising, there just might be a need to look beyond the simplicity of the small inshore SJR, well proven though that undoubtedly is. 

    Last modified: 15 May 2026 10:47 | Anonymous member
  • 15 May 2026 09:38
    Reply # 13632113 on 9338306

    Just a thought Graeme, but does the bottom batten have to be at least half the panel width above the batten downhaul turning block, and do you need a turning block at deck level? Poppy didn’t have a turning block.

    On Poppy the bolts through the deck that held the top and bottom parts of the partners together had steel rings welded on top and the downhauls just went through the rings, which were about 40mm inside diameter and probably 10mm diameter rod. As the downhauls were ever only ‘tug’ tight I see no reason why the two sides of the span could not go through the ring together with the ‘block’ which was only a small nylon thimble.

    Equally, the downhauls don’t need to be spanned, and as the latest rigs have fewer panels and the downhauls were small diameter soft line then a couple of lines through each to 2 or 3 rings should not be a problem. When taking a reef they all come down by the same amount so could all be pulled ‘tug’ tight as a bundle. The downhaul for the lowest batten does not need to be adjustable and can be tied off at the foot of the mast.

    If I remember correctly the only blocks on Poppy were on the halyard and the bottom sheet block which was the old sheet block from the Bermudian rig. It really was a low stress rig.

    As I say, just a thought.

    Thomas, I have never been happy with finding the CoA of a Bermudian rig with more than one headsails so suggest you get expert advice from those who know. You mention 80 sq.m sail area, but on Poppy I only used full main and No.2 headsail area and found it to be adequate, ghosting along at 2 kts in 4 kts of wind in any direction so wonder just what sail area you would really need.

    By the way, Paul Gardham seems very happy with his 2 SJRs on his Freedom 33. Like Graeme he is a fan of the low stress rig.

    Cheers, Slieve.


  • 15 May 2026 08:27
    Reply # 13632106 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Yes, the rule of thumb these days seems to be to have the midpoint of the boom and battens of a junk rig matched to the CE of the original bermudan rig. ie to assume that the CE of both rigs will coincide on tha same vertical line. That puts your current proposed mast position about right, to a few inches, for a 33% balance sail, I would say, though you should draw it accurately and get a second opinion.

    Here is a little spiel on mast height.

    For a normal junk rig with soft batten parrels (that means currently nearly all junk rigs) there are some additional horizontal forces necessary on the sail and battens, to keep the rig from swinging forward. This is why other extra running and standing parrels are often added, to keep the sail draping nicely without severe creases etc. If there is a harmony between the mast-balance and the yard angle, on most junk sails, these forces are kept to a minimum.  As a general rule, we can say that high yard-angle goes best with low mast-balance, and low yard-angle is in harmony with high balance. This is one reason why the Amiina SJR has a relatively low yard angle. The sail is very well designed and harmonised, and horizontal forces on this sail are quite low, and pretty much taken care of by the running parrel downhauls (a feature of that particular design) - no other parrels being necessary (at least on my little boat).

    Paul Th has an excellent diagram which demonstrates the relationship between yard angle and mast balance (which assumes a fixed mast height and a fixed halyard sling point close to the centre of the yard).

    Arne has analysed the problem in another way, by considering the angle between the halyard and the mast when the sail is fully hoisted. (He refers to it as “halyard angle”). The halyard is normally attached to about the midpoint of the yard. The lower the halyard angle, the more vertically it pulls and the less are the horizontal forces required to counteract the halyard’s forward pull, to make the sail drape nicely – a better behaved rig. A correct relationship between yard angle and mast-balance  amounts to the smallest halyard angle, for a given mast height.

    Properly designed, a low balance/high yard-angle sail does not need to have a mast as high as the peak of the sail, as you will see in all of Arne’s drawings,

    Another way of reducing halyard angle is just to increase the height of the mast, but that can mean using one fault to overcome another.

    However, there is another reason why the mast must have sufficient height. Even though the halyard angle is kept to a minimum, when the sail is hoisted to its highest, the halyard still has some angle away from the mast, which means that it has a horizontal component which does not help, and a vertical component which is less than the pull on the halyard. What this means is, if the halyard angle is too high, the effort involved in hoisting the last metre or so of the sail becomes quite great.

    In the case of a SJR sail, that means two constraints. For the Amiina planform, with its low yard angle, the mast height must not be lower than the peak of the yard, in fact a little higher is desirable. The other constraint is that the Amiina sail is designed for and works well with running parrel-downhauls. But these lines are spanned so that each span controls two battens. The lowest batten (be it the boom, or some other batten when the sail is reefed), must be sufficiently clear of the deck if there is to be enough room for the span. If the mast is stepped forward of a cabin top, this presents little trouble. But if the mast is standing on a flush deck or over a deckhouse, then the height of the boom above the turning block for the parrel downhaul (ie the deck) must be at least  just a little more than 50% of the distance between battens. That is a further constraint on the height of the mast, for a given sail area. You need to think about these things when designing a SJR – minimum height of boom above the parrel-downhaul turning blocks, and minimum height of masthead.

    You can make some scale drawings and you will find that for a given height of mast, a low balance sail can be made to have a little more sail area than a high balance SJR. Or, conversely, for a given sail area, the SJR will require a slightly taller mast.

    Here is another "eyeball" comparison, but you can see where the mast height is, in relation to the original bermudan mast height, and compare in each of these two sails

    The SJR is a powerful sail and Slieve will advise (correctly I think) that there is no reason to pursue an excessively large sail area. Also, within reason, a slightly taller mast is not such a disadvantage as may appear (apart from a bit of extra windage when the sail is reefed.) The height of the centre of gravity of the mast, sail and battens is not increased all that much by a bit of extra topmast, and the effect on initial stability is next to zero. When the boat is heeled to a great angle, then the taller mast will start to show some effect on righting moment. Then you will be glad you have a junk rig anyway, because it is so easy to reef.

    You just need to do some drawings and do some calculations to see that we are not talking about a serious disadvantage. Unless the boat happens to be very tender under its original sail area, then it is just one of those things we tend to over-think. I hadn’t thought about that when I made the rough sketch, and didn’t really consider sail area, it was just eyeball. When drawn properly to scale, a SJR rig with a comparable sail area usually comes out with a mast about the same height as the original Bermudan mast, and a Johanna type, of moderate aspect ratio, usually comes out with a mast a bit less than the original Bermudan mast. If you are worried about it, you might like to consider a hybrid mast, with the top, say 25 – 30% made from carbon fibre. In practice I have not heard of any SJR which suffers from too high a mast (though I know of one or two which have masts a bit too short).

    Obviously, everything within reason. These are just things to think about, and maybe to discuss with people like Slieve or Arne, and there are others, who have a wealth of practical experience.



    Last modified: 15 May 2026 10:19 | Anonymous member (Administrator)