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S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

  • 29 Nov 2018 08:10
    Quote
    Reply # 6937640 on 6937060
    Anonymous member
    Scott wrote:

    I appreciate the spirited discussion on materials and sail construction. There is much to think about.

    I got my order of POLYESTER RIPSTOP (DWR) - 2.6 OZ. I like the way it feels (for what that is worth) and it definitely sheds water very well. It seems less stretchy and stronger than other materials. I would say it is much less stretch than any nylon I have looked at and slightly less stretch than Odyssey.

    Unfortunately, if I give it a little effort, I can blow air though it. It seems that a coating of Polyurethane or Acrylic or something to make the fabric air tight is a necessary feature. This fabric does not have a coating.

    I will probably use this to make some bags. I can't imagine it is good to have air blowing through a sail.

    It seems the supplier used straight scissors or a razor to cut the fabric. A hot knife or pinking shears would have been considerate. When I unfolded the fabric large parts of the weave came apart in a long thread.

    It's not a lack of coating that should cause you to avoid this cloth. Try holding it up to a strong light - can you see pinhole-size leakage of light through it? If not, it's tightly woven enough. If it can be used for kites and tents, as the supplier claims, then it's airtight enough for a lightweight sail. It's similar to the cloth I used for my windvane, which is still strong (but faded, as it's red) after two full seasons of exposure to UV. 

    Yes, you'd need a hot knife to work with it. Also, V69 thread will be too heavy. Use a 100% polyester thread intended for outdoor clothing and equipment, metric size 75, Tex size T-35.  On the construction, it's up to you whether you listen to Arne or to me; I'm just going to repeat that good construction methods are going to be essential to making a successful sail in a cloth this light. I would recommend a sailplan with a low yard angle  to decrease stresses around the peak and throat, too. Amiina's very lightweight split junk sail has a low yard angle. Weaverbird's sail, yard angle ~ 45˚, though made from heavy cloth, is designed to minimise the loadings on the parrels, and therefore also the loadings on the cloth will be lower than with  ~ 70˚ yard angle.
  • 29 Nov 2018 00:25
    Quote
    Reply # 6937311 on 6933427
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    I ordered small sample swatches for several different fabrics and also two yards of the POLYESTER RIPSTOP (DWR) - 2.6 OZ. I am not totally sure what I am going to do other than pull on them to see how they 'feel' and then maybe check that my sewing machine can stitch through several layers.

    Here are my findings for lightweight cloth...think parachute, kites, hot air ballons:

    A, B, C

    Turns out your linked source above beats them all.

    rself

    Thank you for the reply and the links to lightweight fabric. In your profile I see that you are using Odyssey III for your sail. Do you have any experience using lighter cloth for a junk rig sail? It seems like everyone is using Odyssey or an even heavier fabric.

    Scott--I have considered making, say the lower 3 panels of 2-3 oz. But no, too much work sewing up 3 new panels then seam stripping to remove the current 3 panels then re-sewing the new set of 3 in place. Is there a benefit? The 6 oz material begins to inflate top of F1 (3 knts) and fully inflates by top of F2 (6 knts) so, really, maybe a detectable benefit on an upwind course, maybe.

    But for your intended light-wind summer sailing should be fine.

    I believe the split junk rig Amiina's newest sail is 2-3 oz. It's about the same size as your S2. Search this JRA site for info.

    If you haven't seen it here is a good article comparing Amiina with the bermuda equivalent. And here is a video showing 3 small junkrigs, including Amiina, in light air.

    rself

    Last modified: 29 Nov 2018 00:59 | Deleted user
  • 28 Nov 2018 23:15
    Quote
    Reply # 6937235 on 6936581
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David wrote

    No, one should not un-learn western sailmaking. Sailmaking is sailmaking, whatever the kind of sail. Bad practice is bad practice, whatever the kind of sail.


    Okey, so the millions of Chinese got it all wrong during all those centuries  -  too bad for them.
    Only problem; I think their sails made a lot of sense…


    Last modified: 28 Nov 2018 23:16 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Nov 2018 22:50
    Quote
    Reply # 6937223 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,

    I’m on thin ice when it comes to deciding if a cloth is air-tight enough or not for using as a sail, so take this with a large pinch of salt. I read somewhere, some time, that there was a sort of standardised way og measuring this sort of airtightness, but I have forgotten where I read it.

    Just remember, the average differential pressure in a sail is mostly well less than a MilliBar (hekto Pascal, hPa, these days), which is only 1.0cm water column. Only on small spots of the sail will the pressure ever reach 2-3 hPa. In a sail, 1.0 hPa would mean about 10kp/sqm sail area so a 20sqm sail would produce 200kp force with that little pressure. It takes some wind to achieve that, somwhere around 30kts (again, double check it).

    My point is that we can easily blow a pressure that is 50 times higher than that wind pressure .

    Therefore, if you need to use some force to blow through the cloth, and you are unable to just breath through it, it may well be useful as a sail. If it is cheap and easy to work with, it may be worth a try. Make a couple of bags of it first to see if it sews well with your machine.

    Good luck,
    Arne


    Last modified: 29 Nov 2018 08:39 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Nov 2018 22:21
    Quote
    Reply # 6937199 on 6936719
    Anonymous member
    Anonymous wrote:
    David wrote

    Arne,
    I can only answer your questions with more questions: how many sea miles, how many hours of sailing? What matters is not the number of years your sails have existed, it's the hours of seatime they've had.

    Ah, the sea miles question, I waited for that. Not much to brag about there, I am afraid. However, I guess that Johanna's sail in 2014 had seen as much sailing time as Asmat's blue sail of that Kingfisher 26(?).

    Or am I wrong there, as well?

    Arne

    More, Arne. I sold Antares in May 2011. 

    Asmat
  • 28 Nov 2018 20:55
    Quote
    Reply # 6937060 on 6872873
    Anonymous member

    I appreciate the spirited discussion on materials and sail construction. There is much to think about.

    I got my order of POLYESTER RIPSTOP (DWR) - 2.6 OZ. I like the way it feels (for what that is worth) and it definitely sheds water very well. It seems less stretchy and stronger than other materials. I would say it is much less stretch than any nylon I have looked at and slightly less stretch than Odyssey.

    Unfortunately, if I give it a little effort, I can blow air though it. It seems that a coating of Polyurethane or Acrylic or something to make the fabric air tight is a necessary feature. This fabric does not have a coating.

    I will probably use this to make some bags. I can't imagine it is good to have air blowing through a sail.

    It seems the supplier used straight scissors or a razor to cut the fabric. A hot knife or pinking shears would have been considerate. When I unfolded the fabric large parts of the weave came apart in a long thread.

    Last modified: 28 Nov 2018 20:57 | Anonymous member
  • 28 Nov 2018 17:39
    Quote
    Reply # 6936719 on 6936581
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David wrote

    Arne,
    I can only answer your questions with more questions: how many sea miles, how many hours of sailing? What matters is not the number of years your sails have existed, it's the hours of seatime they've had.

    Ah, the sea miles question, I waited for that. Not much to brag about there, I am afraid. However, I guess that Johanna's sail in 2014 had seen as much sailing time as Asmat's blue sail of that Kingfisher 26(?).

    Or am I wrong there, as well?

    Arne

    Last modified: 28 Nov 2018 17:42 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Nov 2018 17:06
    Quote
    Reply # 6936668 on 6936341
    Anonymous member
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    I wouldn't use odyssey for a cruising boat. The photos attached show a sail made of odyssey3 in 2011 and under new ownership a year later.

    Sorry, can't flip the 2011 picture right way up.

    Downloading and zooming the pics I don't see any obvious tears in the sail. An alternative explanation for the difference in the pictures is: with wind and without wind.
    Another explamation that's just ocurred to me for the poor appearance of my sail after a year is that the new owner has omitted the Hong Kong parrels. These proved necessary with that sail. Branwen's sails don't need them - a firm tug on the throat hauling parrels gives her sails a nice shape. I fear additional deterioration may have resulted from the sail being left uncoated, exposed to sun and city air, in her Cardiff marina berth. 
  • 28 Nov 2018 16:26
    Quote
    Reply # 6936581 on 6936448
    Anonymous member
    Anonymous wrote:

    Forget about western sailmaking in junkrigs

    David,
    Well, then I guess it is my turn to repeat that one should sort of un-learn western sailmaking when making a cambered panels junksail.     The reason is that the load in the fabric is an order of magnitude lower than in western sails of the same sail area.

    The load in the fabric is in the same order of magnitude as that in western sails - in the upper panels only, which is where Asmat's photo shows a great deal of distortion, because of the weight of the sail and battens below it, and sheet tension.

    No, one should not un-learn western sailmaking. Sailmaking is sailmaking, whatever the kind of sail. Bad practice is bad practice, whatever the kind of sail.

    But let’s say that I have misunderstood this. How come then that my sails don’t get distorted after several years of sailing? How can it be that Johanna was just as close-winded the day I sold her in 2014 as during the first sails in 2003? How can it be that her helm balance did not change over time as a result of the camber moving aft? And how can it be that my sails last quite well?

    Arne,
    I can only answer your questions with more questions: how many sea miles, how many hours of sailing? What matters is not the number of years your sails have existed, it's the hours of seatime they've had.
  • 28 Nov 2018 15:43
    Quote
    Reply # 6936448 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Forget about western sailmaking in junkrigs

    David,
    Well, then I guess it is my turn to repeat that one should sort of un-learn western sailmaking when making a cambered panels junksail.     The reason is that the load in the fabric is an order of magnitude lower than in western sails of the same sail area. This it had to be on the original Chinese sails, since the Chinese until recently did not have access to strong sail-material. To them the boltrope was probably not primarily to keep a shape in the sail, but to avoid ripping and destroying the whole thing.

    But let’s say that I have misunderstood this. How come then that my sails don’t get distorted after several years of sailing? How can it be that Johanna was just as close-winded the day I sold her in 2014 as during the first sails in 2003? How can it be that her helm balance did not change over time as a result of the camber moving aft? And how can it be that my sails last quite well?
    Could it be that my sails, with their stout webbing boltropes, and no fancy sailmaker craftsmanship in them, are good after all? I think so.
    Practical sailing experience beats theories and words.

     

    Arne


    Johanna in 2014 with her new owner
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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