Are two masts too much on a Cape Dory 28

  • 23 Jun 2022 03:01
    Reply # 12825936 on 12822259
    Anonymous wrote:

    My ANNA LUCJA 2 was designed and built as JR scooner, despite only 6,5m long hull. Now, after some 6 week of test sailing at the lake I am quite happy with the 2 mast design. Originally, sailes should be 12sqm each, I made them 15sqm each, with longer battens, so needed to use double sheets on the foremast. Also, for proper ballance I need rise one panel less of the foresail, as in the picture. For downwind sailing the entire sail goes up. I can carry 30sqm of canvas with masts only 7m tall (above the deck), each weighting some 25kgm, so I am able easily to put them up and down in the tabernacle.  She is very sensitive to the sails ballance - I can change the course not tuching the tiller - just by easing or pulling sheets. At anchor I may rise 1 panel of the main up, and she is pointing great. 

    That is a awesome looking boat and rig.
  • 23 Jun 2022 02:59
    Reply # 12825934 on 12825781
    Anonymous wrote:

    James,
    the rig I drew up for you yesterday is in my view already an improvement over my former boats like Johanna and Ingeborg  -  I mean when offshore travelling is on the menu. The shorter cord/waterline ratio and better angle clearance to the sea, with the sail squared out, would let it travel quite safely offshore.

    However, since the word ‘circumnavigation’ popped up here, I think there is room for improvements.

    This time I have fitted an almost identical sail, but with a 65° yard. This little change (and by keeping the same mast) gives more room for shifting the sail both forward and aft. It also lets one install running Tack Parrel (TP) and thus tilt the lower end well forward (5° in this case). I know that some has found this to be a useful measure to ease steering downwind, but I hope the two Davids; Tyler and Thatcher will share a bit of their personal experience with this method. Anyway, as shown on the diagram to the right, The CE of the tilted sail has moved ‘inside the rail’, so steering should be easy.

    You will notice that I have also plonked on a new rudder onto the transom. This is probably an overkill for this boat. Better save that space for a servo pendulum gear.

    Arne

     

     

    Yes I was thinking about using Cape Horn steering gear on the Transom. So Arne, what method did you use for mast location, did you go a percentage from the original. Im not sure the terminology, a large main with a smaller jib but both junk rigged, like a ketch but with the smaller sail forward. So I keep thinking about building a mast with the birdmouth method, and I think about all the chances for something to not bond correctly. Which makes me think about making a solid mast (out of a number of strips bonded together. This seems stronger to me, but then all that weight up high, on a fairly tender boat. I thought maybe the ketch or whatever it is would be better as the canter would be lower....but more weight overall. I love the look of two masts, but whatever would work best. I could also see a boxed style mast being pretty easy to build. That would be hollow. I just have it stuck in my head tall wooden mast needs to be the birdsmouth style which i dread trying to build..lol.

  • 23 Jun 2022 00:42
    Reply # 12825837 on 12821869
    Anonymous wrote:

    I know in The Practical Junk Rig, it says two masts could be used on a minimum of a 28 foot boat, and I think later it says if its LOA is over 31. My Cape Dory 28 has a LOA of 28.4. As I have had problems finding a good aluminum mast, and am now looking more into wood. I would prefer to have two shorter wood masts for back up,and easier to built smaller masts, havent done the numbers yet, but they should be pretty short, not sure how that would affect the performance in between tall waves maybe..no clue.

    Other than mast placement vs interior space , does anyone have any thoughts on this. I will try to do all the figures this coming week , finding the mast placement and height , sail area, etc this week, I just thought maybe someone might have a reason I shouldnt even go down that road..lol.

    Personally I like two masts on an offshore boat. Yes, you loose a bit of windward performance but that does not matter much offshore.

    Two masts give you more balance options, smaller sails and a reserve mast if all turns to custard.

    Everything is just so much easier from a handling point of view.

    A 28ft Cape Dory would have no issues with a schooner rig.

  • 22 Jun 2022 23:06
    Reply # 12825781 on 12821869
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    James,
    the rig I drew up for you yesterday is in my view already an improvement over my former boats like Johanna and Ingeborg  -  I mean when offshore travelling is on the menu. The shorter cord/waterline ratio and better angle clearance to the sea, with the sail squared out, would let it travel quite safely offshore.

    However, since the word ‘circumnavigation’ popped up here, I think there is room for improvements.

    This time I have fitted an almost identical sail, but with a 65° yard. This little change (and by keeping the same mast) gives more room for shifting the sail both forward and aft. It also lets one install running Tack Parrel (TP) and thus tilt the lower end well forward (5° in this case). I know that some has found this to be a useful measure to ease steering downwind, but I hope the two Davids; Tyler and Thatcher will share a bit of their personal experience with this method. Anyway, as shown on the diagram to the right, The CE of the tilted sail has moved ‘inside the rail’, so steering should be easy.

    You will notice that I have also plonked on a new rudder onto the transom. This is probably an overkill for this boat. Better save that space for a servo pendulum gear.

    Arne

     

  • 22 Jun 2022 16:21
    Reply # 12825244 on 12821869

    Wow Arne, that is amazing! To answer your last question, what will I be doing with the boat. I love being offshore for days. I will be sailing the east coast of the US then heading south with the goal of heading in the direction of a circumnavigation. Even if I don't make it that far I would enjoy long ocean passages and a boat that can handle anything. 

  • 21 Jun 2022 21:48
    Reply # 12824447 on 12821869
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    James,

    Now I have had a new go on drawing a JR for your boat. I decided to try a sloop rig once more, but now I would make use of my experience with my Ingeborg.

    Since your boat appears to be quite sturdy, I made the sail rather taller than I use to, but with the chord of the sail shorter compared to the waterline. The CE is put in the same position as that of the original rig. In case she turns out to have a little lee helm when close-hauled (which I doubt), there will be ample room for shifting the sail aft on the mast. The sail area to disp. ratio is 'only' 16.2. Since you are thinking of rigging with a wooden mast (25cm hollow spruce would do), I don’t recommend a taller rig.

    There is another way of increasing the sail area and that is to reduce the yard angle with 5 or 10°, which would let one increase the sail’s batten length and mast balance, while keeping the CE in the same position.

    However, have a look at this one first.

    Arne


    Last modified: 22 Jun 2022 23:08 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 21 Jun 2022 17:15
    Reply # 12824093 on 12821869

    Speaking on the Cape Dory 28, I wish it was a Alberg 30. If anyone has the choice of the two they may want to consider this. I dont care for the liner in the Cape Dory, from what I understand the Alberg doesnt have a liner. So you end up cutting the liner in spots, I would prefer to remove it completely and just go back with regular wood construction of the counters, seats, etc, but I dont know how structural the liner is. But if youre not going to do a bunch of modifications and are mostly going to keep it stock the Cape Dory is nice. And I think in my case I always want the boat I dont have. But keep it in mind iif you have the choice.

  • 21 Jun 2022 00:58
    Reply # 12823322 on 12821869

    Thanks guys, I will continue to look into it then. I like the Cape Dory a lot, it's a nice sturdy boat and you're right, it does have some decent ballast. I'm going to try to get the boat back in the water as soon as possible, so I'll do all the figures, then put the boat back in with it's regular sloop rig, then when all the junk masts sails etc are done I'll haul out and do the switch...I'm afraid to do it all at once as I could end up with just a project I never finished. But I will take some pics of the progress and share them when Im done. 

    Thanks 

  • 20 Jun 2022 22:07
    Reply # 12823189 on 12821869
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    James,
    Back in 2008 the matter of fitting a JR to a Cape Dory 28 was up on the Yahoo JR forum. This forum has now been closed down. I drew up a couple of sailplans for her. One was a sloop rig and a straight copy of the rig I had on my Alo 28, Johanna. I also suggested a yawl rig to reduce the steering issues downwind  -  that mainsail was narrower. Looking at it now, I am not completely happy with it, but I think the yawl version could be improved upon into something useful. The keel and rudder of the CD 28 is very similar to my present boat, the Marieholm IF, Ingeborg, so I would avoid a very broad sloop sail
    The question is, what sort of use will your boat see? That will have some influence on the size and type of rig.

    Anyway, I have in mind a mainmast planted through the aft end of the foredeck.

    Arne

  • 20 Jun 2022 07:55
    Reply # 12822260 on 12821869

    I rigged the 28ft Ivory Gull as a schooner, but that was mainly because I had two spare masts looking for a job to do. She would have had better windward performance with a single sail, I think, but she cruised successfully around Ireland and Scotland, and is still rigged that way. 

    Schooner masts tend to be as tall as a single mast would be, as the AR is necessarily high to get enough area within a short LOA. It can be done, though.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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