Cash prize of 250 GBP - Dinghy Design Competition

  • 24 Mar 2021 15:39
    Reply # 10230930 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    OK, then, here is your JR.
    The shown sail is taken from the Johanna-style master sail with AR=1.90 (same as on Ingeborg). Two panels have been removed. When thinking through the furling and stowing process of it, I think it will take several minutes. This is well oustide the tender rig’s specs. However, if one stores the rig (and leeboard + rudder) on the mother ship, it may be useful as a rig for occasional dinghy sailing. One may even be enthusiastic enough to make the sail with six or seven panels (0.5sqm/panel).

    I would make the sail properly with well thought out camber in it and using the lightest imaginable cloth. A single (‘tacking’) leeboard would provide leeway resistance  -  and may do second duty as a fish-gutting board. In case the steering oar is tiring to use, then one must bite the bullet and make a rudder.
    Be my guest...

    Arne


  • 24 Mar 2021 10:19
    Reply # 10230065 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I guess Halibut falls outside the frame of the contest, since its row-to-sail ratio is four to one. Its five-plank design makes it similar to most traditional Norwegian workboats. These all have a narrow waterline when light, but they get increasingly wide as you load them, thanks to their flared topsides (about 24° from vertical). This makes them easy to row, and dry as well. In contrast, my Oslo-dinghy Broremann had almost vertical topsides. It wasn’t a very good rower, and it was surprisingly wet, but it performed well under sail. The 10sqm JR fitted to Broremann was a great success, but then the mast was only raised and lowered once a year.

    For a practical tender, I would be very reluctant to add on rig, rudder and any sort of board. The tiny vessel would soon be cluttered with rarely used stuff. The rig I have sketched up is as much as I would use, possibly with the (later) addition of a sprit to almost double the sail area. As the rig is now, it can go from fully set to fully stowed in 20-30 seconds, and not be much in the way when out of use. With two oarlocks on the stern, an oar will do fine for steering the half mile across the bay, and this setup also invites to practice sculling.
    The shown sail area may look like a joke, but it doesn’t take much to achieve rowing speed. A square-sail is out, as it is less easy to de-power in a gust. The shown sail can be streamed in any direction, including straight forward.

    As a miniature junket boat (..with a ten to one sail/row ratio...), I would rather suggest the 8’ Puddle Duck Racer, PDR. These have great hull stability for their size, and can carry surprisingly big sails (check Youtube).

    Conclusion: Fitting a JR to a practical tender is not for me.
    I am an engineer, not a JR priest.

    Cheers,
    Arne

    PS: When I have laid out the planks for Halibut on Sheet 3, you may be surprised. All the planks will have the same curves, except the sheer-lines. Once one of these have been cut out accurately, it can be used to quickly scribe the cutting lines for the others.


    Last modified: 24 Mar 2021 10:47 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 24 Mar 2021 09:59
    Reply # 10230022 on 10211344

    These drawings are for manual marking out and cutting from 3 sheets of 4mm plywood, and conventional framing using 20mm sq softwood. I would have to add dimensions and more details, and write down the building sequence, but the major components are there.

    Alternatively, I could add the detailing necessary for CNC cut, slot together construction.

    The sail is 2.4 sq m, large enough, I think. The battens are three equal lengths of 1.66m cut from a 5m tube. The mast is 2.4m long, to act as a cover ridge pole, and the yard is 1.4m, both from a 5m x 45mm dia tube. A 3-point sheet span with single part sheet, a single part halyard and the simplest possible lifts complete the rigging. Steering by oar permits sculling through the un-sailable bits.

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  • 24 Mar 2021 08:24
    Reply # 10229839 on 10211344

    The 9ft tender that I built for Tystie had a sleeved luff sprit sail that could be stored neatly within the boat without making rowing difficult, a leeboard that hung over the side and a proper little rudder. Here it is sailing in Bora Bora lagoon. Otherwise, it very rarely got used, though it was as simple and easy to deploy as a yacht tender's rig could possibly be. Just sayin'.

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  • 24 Mar 2021 07:55
    Reply # 10229805 on 10211344

    Graeme, I know all about the impracticability of a full-on JR on an 11ft 6in dinghy. Have a look at the front cover of JRA NL 31, 1995. My dinghy Dorothy has a mast that is the same length as the boat, so that it can act as a ridge pole for the cover, and it is the work of a moment to step it in a Yorkshire Coble type of tabernacle. The sail was another matter. I used to get into awful tangles with the sheet and lifts. Then I made a mast extender - an alloy tube that slipped onto the top of the mast to ship a taller sail - and the tangles resembled the Gordian Knot. 

    So, yes, the challenge is not to design a dinghy. The challenge is to design a simplified form of JR for a dinghy, be it 8ft, 12ft or 16ft, that would be practical enough to actually get used regularly, without causing undue frustration.

  • 24 Mar 2021 07:32
    Reply # 10229756 on 10228715
    Arne wrote:

    2.4m tender «Halibut»

    • ·         The rig is only an add-on for downwind use  -  only fools row downwind...
    Quick question, Arne: your forefathers in the 10th century used square sails for blowing downwind, putting down their battleaxes and shields to row upwind - had you considered putting a light spar along the head of the sail? Then raise one oar as a mast, steer with the other??
    Last modified: 24 Mar 2021 07:34 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Mar 2021 02:44
    Reply # 10229249 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    EDITED

     I do own that I made the statement 8' is too small to be worth putting a junk rig on which was a value judgement I should not have made in such blunt terms. I apologise for that, because I do sincerely support and appreciate the efforts of the committee and did not mean that statement to be as negative as it sounds.

    Of course you can put a junk rig on an 8’ dinghy, as we know it has been done. In fact, I am eagerly looking forward to seeing Annie’s junk-rigged tender when the competition eventually yields a winner – in which case I might be very tempted to have a go at making one too.

    (By the way, evidently the committee has thought about this and is maybe on the right track, because nowhere in the criteria is there any requirement for the JRA sailing tender to be junk rigged – merely that it should be easily reefed. Annie and I both overlooked that small point, and it makes a bit of a difference).


    The sponsored JRA dinghy design really ought to be junk rigged, despite the small size of the boat and the (in my opinion) impracticality of it. Annie is absolutely right in her vision of fun and frivolity arising from a few little junks buzzing around the anchorage at a junket. That, surely, must be the main goal and point of the exercise, and is surely more fun than sitting around at anchor all day, which is what I have observed most people doing at the “tall ships” I have attended in the last three years.

    Therein lies the real challenge. There are plenty of simple-to-build plywood tender designs which are known to be (more or less) suitable. But no-one has yet designed a junk rig especially suitable for an 8’ dinghy. That would be a worthwhile challenge.


    The real challenge is not to design the hull, but to make a variation of the junk rig which can be carried as a bundle in one hand, spar lengths stowable, able to be set up or struck in a jiffy (or at least just a minute or two) and able to deploy while actually on the water. Then we will have a tiny, practical junk-rigged tender which will be reefable and really safe to sail away in, turn envious eyes – and actually get used.

    Can it be done? Yes, I think maybe it can. 

    I’m in support of the JRA Tender competition - but I am still going to pursue the junket boat idea.

    You can’t have too many boats…. can you?


    Edit: I've just seen Arne's latest post which popped up while writing this.

    Well done, I love the 5-plank configuration. Handsome and jaunty Halibut is crying out for a little centreboard and rudder, and a bit better sail plan. Back to the drawing board Arne, for 2-minute-deployable Johanna rig!

    When sailing a little dinghy you have to shift your bum around a bit - sometimes from the bottom of the boat (which is the best place) to a thwart. When you get old like me, low thwarts are the best. Its a little beauty Arne.

    So far, David has produced the simplest-to-build hull shape and best arrangement of buoyancy, moveable thwart, and off-centre board (one's enough I reckon) and the best looking rig, but presumably the judging committee will need to see some more details, ie the running rigging and how quickly it can be deployed.

    Last modified: 25 Mar 2021 22:12 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Mar 2021 23:01
    Reply # 10228715 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    2.4m tender «Halibut»

    Now, of course I could not keep my cotton-picking fingers away from the keyboard, so here are the first two sheets for a design for a 2.4 x 1.3m(!) plywood tender. My two main design goals are:

    • ·         Easy rowing with one or two persons on board.
    • ·         Safe capacity for three persons.
    • ·         The rig is only an add-on for downwind use  -  only fools row downind...

    Next challenge is to be able to develop the plywood sheets  -  using the 2-D QCAD program. Thanks to the simple design with constant deadrise, it should be doable.

    The thwarts have been set quite low to gain stability ( ..I guess I have seen too many video clips from American funniest Home Videos...), but I might have overdone it, what do you think?
    The waterline beam is only 98cm when light, but 125cm (or even 130) with full load.

    Arne

    (Check Arne's sketches, section 5. photo 8)

    Last modified: 20 Mar 2023 09:56 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Mar 2021 07:48
    Reply # 10223115 on 10222130
    Graeme wrote:

    I wonder if a more practical set of criteria would be not for a TENDER, but instead for a "JUNKET BOAT" - a general-purpose sailing dinghy which does not want an outboard, and which can be easily transported for those who are unable or for whom it is inconvenient at the time to travel to a junket under sail. Ideally it would be transportable on a car top (just) or with a very light trailer, and able to accommodate an air mattress/sleeping bag/canopy arrangement (just).

    These two almost contradictory criteria intersect at about 12'.

    Swapping boats and rigs at a junket, and letting bystanders have a go, would be rather fun.

    The Welsford design [Golden Bay] (12'9") just sneaks in. All John Welsford has to do is modify the plan to provide an offset centreboard case and removable thwart. (Marcus reckons narrow side buoyancy tanks and short centre thwart which just drops into place for rowing. The ideal for me would be a single off-centreboard case incorporated into a side buoyancy tank, with a long swinging board for sailing in shallow bays, and for variable CLR.

    All John Welsford has to do is modify the plan to provide an offset centreboard case and removeable thwart. (Marcus reckons narrow side buoyancy tanks and short centre thwart which just drops into place for rowing. The ideal for me would be a single off-centreboard case incorporated into a side buoyancy tank, with a long swinging board for sailing in shallow bays, and for variable CLR.

    We don't need a sail plan. I am sure people like David, Arne, Sieve, Paul etc can come up with a suitable variety.

    They row beautifully.

    Here's mine

    I agree absolutely, Graeme. This is what the JRA should be sponsoring and encouraging, a one-design Junket Boat, not a design for a tender. 

    I agree, too, with the idea of having two side tanks with parallel sides that are just far enough apart to fit an air mattress of the Thermarest type in between. The removable thwart that can be slid fore and aft for rowing from different positions with one, two or three aboard, or removed for camping, is perfect. Given that, you have a versatile, easily built boat for Junkets, family pottering and minimalist dinghy cruising. Spot on. Again, there's no need to reinvent the wheel over and over again. The Golden Bay, with changes to the interior, fits the brief very well.

  • 22 Mar 2021 03:52
    Reply # 10222621 on 10211344

    Well, I think it's a fun idea and a little bit of frivolity wouldn't go amiss.  8ft is a great size for a dinghy for many boats (and of course there is no reason why one couldn't put two bulkheads in it and transform it to a nesting dinghy.)

    Sure, a unk rig of this size won't allow for any 'meaningful comparisons', but it will allow people to have a lot of fun at a junket and might encourage timid sailors to get into a dinghy, once they see how easily the sail can be reefed.

    I suspect the 'one sheet of ply' has been clumsily worded.  I don't think the competition is for a one-sheet of ply dinghy: what I suspect was meant was that none of the panels should be scarffed.

    Mr Thatcher, you need to get your darling new boat up to the BOI, where there are not only still many solid tenders in use, but you frequently seem them being rowed.

    Yes, there are heaps of dinghy designs around.  There are also heaps of designs for 26ft boats around.  But that doesn't mean that there wasn't room for another one ;-P

    And full marks to the Committee in trying to engage the membership.  I hope people won't be discouraged from the amount of cold water that is being poured over the idea.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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