SibLim 10 metre

  • 03 Nov 2021 15:06
    Reply # 12096171 on 12095674
    Anonymous wrote:

    Green-ness? Ecology? The only sustainable answer is to consume less. If we want to be "green", we'd better not cut down trees and stick their timbers together with synthetic resins, then make sails out of synthetic materials. In fact, we'd better just make coracles and kayaks with wicker frames and natural fibre or animal skins.

    All of which has nothing to do with the choice of auxiliary for this boat, which decision needs to be based on convenience, cost, availability and suchlike factors. There is no "green" solution. Or rather the only "green" solution would be to have no auxiliary at all.

    David, this is how the world is changing; everybody from heads of state down to the lone kayaker simply must add the ecological impact (which can be positive) to their decision making along with the criteria you've listed. There are green solutions, greener solutions and green-wash solutions and it's far from black and white but we must try.

    The whole membership of the JRA and their boats possibly have less impact than some millionaire's floating gin-palace in the Med so we shouldn't get hung up on or over-estimate our negative impact. However, innovation and thoughtfulness are potentially very positive social and ecological impacts so I believe it to be very important for the builder of a boat to consider the most positive and "green" or ecological outcomes to the best of their knowledge. 

    A Siblim built from fir and birch ply covered with flax reinforcement and plant-based epoxy and linseed oil based paints would be a positive compared to a carbon fiber race boat and its existence could send out positive ripples through demonstrating innovation. Likewise with an electric auxiliary, go for it I say, but choose carefully. There are different technologies available, try to innovate using the Sib Lim principles rather than blindly following what industry is currently presenting as the only choice, ie. avoid rare-earth metals in motors and the worse of the lithium battery chemistries. 

  • 03 Nov 2021 11:02
    Reply # 12095674 on 10668989

    Green-ness? Ecology? The only sustainable answer is to consume less. If we want to be "green", we'd better not cut down trees and stick their timbers together with synthetic resins, then make sails out of synthetic materials. In fact, we'd better just make coracles and kayaks with wicker frames and natural fibre or animal skins.

    All of which has nothing to do with the choice of auxiliary for this boat, which decision needs to be based on convenience, cost, availability and suchlike factors. There is no "green" solution. Or rather the only "green" solution would be to have no auxiliary at all.

  • 03 Nov 2021 10:43
    Reply # 12095656 on 12094699
    Anonymous wrote:

    I must say that I wish an electric outboard were a genuine alternative to the 4-stroke I presently have.  However, quite apart from the fact that I don't wish to turn my boat into a field of solar panels, I have to ask how the ecological footprint of buying the new engine, solar panels and batteries compares with keeping my existing (second-hand) engine and using less than a litre per week o fpetrol.  There is more to consider than carbon emission, and ecological overshoot is something that worries me just as much.  Alas, the electric alternative is not part of a circular economy.

    And that's quite apart from all the other pros and cons of outboard vs inboard and petrol vs diesel!! 

    Keeping an old four-stroke going on that tiny amount of petrol wins hands-down over any electric alternative. I've been researching so-called Fair-Trade cobalt for use in ceramics and discovered that my lifetime use of cobalt as a ceramicist would be insignificant compared to the average 7kg of cobalt in the average e-car battery. Some cobalt is mined as well as can be expected in places like Canada but the majority comes from open-cast mines in Africa. Basically your lithium battery powered car or boat is being pushed along by exploited Congolese children. Lithium is a whole other can of worms. In all the reporting about COP26 I haven't heard anyone saying we all just need to use less! LIM!  They're expecting further industrialization to sort the climate out. 

    I probably will move to electric on the next boat but I'm looking into Lead-Carbon batteries (ballast and power) and when not in use in the boating season they will be an essential part of our off-grid energy system for the winter. 

  • 03 Nov 2021 08:03
    Reply # 12095379 on 12095106
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

     I have to ask how the ecological footprint of buying the new engine, solar panels and batteries compares with keeping my existing (second-hand) engine and using less than a litre per week of petrol.  There is more to consider than carbon emission, and ecological overshoot is something that worries me just as much.  Alas, the electric alternative is not part of a circular economy.


    Yes indeed. I strongly suspect maintaining existing devices is "greener" than buying new, of any description.
  • 03 Nov 2021 05:07
    Reply # 12095106 on 12094699
    Anonymous wrote:

    I must say that I wish an electric outboard were a genuine alternative to the 4-stroke I presently have.  However, quite apart from the fact that I don't wish to turn my boat into a field of solar panels, I have to ask how the ecological footprint of buying the new engine, solar panels and batteries compares with keeping my existing (second-hand) engine and using less than a litre per week o fpetrol.  There is more to consider than carbon emission, and ecological overshoot is something that worries me just as much.  Alas, the electric alternative is not part of a circular economy.

    And that's quite apart from all the other pros and cons of outboard vs inboard and petrol vs diesel!! 

    Agree with you Annie.
    I think the so called 'greenness' of electric engines of any sort is up for debate.

    I read somewhere that modern petrol cars will be less a carbon burden on the world than the carbon / fossil fuels needed to produce electric vehicles.

    I believe in the science of global warming, I am yet to be convinced that the lithium alternative to fossil fuels is all it is cracked up to be as far as being the brake on global warming that we all hope it will be

    Last modified: 03 Nov 2021 05:08 | Anonymous member
  • 03 Nov 2021 01:15
    Reply # 12094699 on 10668989

    I must say that I wish an electric outboard were a genuine alternative to the 4-stroke I presently have.  However, quite apart from the fact that I don't wish to turn my boat into a field of solar panels, I have to ask how the ecological footprint of buying the new engine, solar panels and batteries compares with keeping my existing (second-hand) engine and using less than a litre per week o fpetrol.  There is more to consider than carbon emission, and ecological overshoot is something that worries me just as much.  Alas, the electric alternative is not part of a circular economy.

    And that's quite apart from all the other pros and cons of outboard vs inboard and petrol vs diesel!! 

  • 02 Nov 2021 05:24
    Reply # 12091497 on 12090667
    Donald wrote:
    Annie wrote:

    Ah.  What a shame to lose all that wonderful dry storage for something that is hardly ever used.  Plus, of course, the larger ecological footprint, but each to his own. 

    The owners of Shoestring and Footprints have always been happy with their 9.9 hp outboards.


    Hi.  I'm the future builder of Siblim 10m and I agree with you about the engine.  I don't like them, and will avoid using them if I can.  However, the default option right at the moment is for an inboard diesel.  I'm currently looking into other options and electric inboards, and outboards (electric or otherwise) are a definite potential, particularly seeing how fast the electric propulsion industry seems to be moving at the moment.  I like the simplicity of and outboard and the fact it can be completely removed if need be.  My old boat was a Folkboat with a 4hp on the transom which had it's pros and cons, and I almost never wished it was an inboard...

    Donald

    Hi, an ex owner of Footprints here. When I first bought Footprints she had an elderly 8hp Yamaha 4 x stroke outboard motor. The motor was troublesome and had barely enough power for the boat. So I looked to replace with an inboard diesel engine but when I realised the cost to purchase and install a good diesel I looked back at outboards. I ended up buying a new Yamaha 9.9hp high thrust motor with remotes and power tilt. This was set up in a well at the stern of the boat, and the motor was raised vertically when sailing and the boat was not in use. Over 12 years of ownership and a mixture of coastal and offshore sailing I found the motor to be perfectly adequate and I never again wished for an inboard diesel. The motor was utterly reliable and had ample power for the uses I put it to. Another benefit that everything to do with the motor lived in the outboard well and adjacent self draining and vented locker which freed up a lot of interior space and did away with all diesel and other motor smells in the interior. And the propeller never became fouled because it spent most of its time out of the water. My preference now would always be an outboard motor provided the boat was suited to this type of installation.
    Last modified: 02 Nov 2021 05:28 | Anonymous member
  • 01 Nov 2021 22:28
    Reply # 12090667 on 12090292
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Ah.  What a shame to lose all that wonderful dry storage for something that is hardly ever used.  Plus, of course, the larger ecological footprint, but each to his own. 

    The owners of Shoestring and Footprints have always been happy with their 9.9 hp outboards.


    Hi.  I'm the future builder of Siblim 10m and I agree with you about the engine.  I don't like them, and will avoid using them if I can.  However, the default option right at the moment is for an inboard diesel.  I'm currently looking into other options and electric inboards, and outboards (electric or otherwise) are a definite potential, particularly seeing how fast the electric propulsion industry seems to be moving at the moment.  I like the simplicity of and outboard and the fact it can be completely removed if need be.  My old boat was a Folkboat with a 4hp on the transom which had it's pros and cons, and I almost never wished it was an inboard...

    Donald

  • 01 Nov 2021 20:24
    Reply # 12090292 on 10668989

    Ah.  What a shame to lose all that wonderful dry storage for something that is hardly ever used.  Plus, of course, the larger ecological footprint, but each to his own. 

    The owners of Shoestring and Footprints have always been happy with their 9.9 hp outboards.

  • 31 Oct 2021 22:15
    Reply # 12087503 on 12087323
    Annie wrote:David, where does the outboard motor go?
    For this builder, the preference is for an inboard diesel, with either conventional shaft and prop or saildrive. But yes, it could be an outboard with twin rudders, à la Fanshi, for a different builder. Possibly an electric inboard or outboard if the technology advances enough.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software