Mizzen sail self steering

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  • 13 Feb 2022 23:41
    Reply # 12597166 on 10940457

    Hi David, the answer is variable. On one occasion it was not working well, so I went looking for a cause and I believe my sail was not set well. I have leech ribbons that stream when there is normal flow over the sail and they flick back when the flow is stalled (Assuming my knowledge of sail aerodynamics is correct). I noted that the bottom ribbon was backwinding first while the upper ones streaming. When I eased the traveller and tightened the mainsheet, all the ribbons backwinded at about and the steering got a lot better. My guess is that with a well set sail, it develops maximum lift at a narrow range of apparent wind angles and the luffing to full drive range might be 10-15 deg.  But by not being greedy, I might be working in a 5 degree range of wind angles.

    So, for me, when it is going well, it is a better helmsman than me as it is more sensitive to wind angle. When the sail is not set well, I can do better. But it would not be much good if with heavy weather helm or a system with much friction.

  • 11 Feb 2022 15:57
    Reply # 12592668 on 10940457

    John, your self-steering method is interesting.  I'm curious about the course on various points of sail.  Is it fairly straight, or more zig-zaggy?  

  • 11 Feb 2022 15:52
    Reply # 12592664 on 12590125
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    I would very much like to try it on China Blue, but I wonder about the size of the mizzen and related components.The boat has been weighed at 12 tons, when picked up by the travel lift in Glasgow. I'm afraid it would have to be quite a big and cumbersome affair, requiring more resistance, and a budget in consequence.

    Any suggestion?

    From the picture you posted... my first thought would be that the mizzen (main actually) contributes a lot (most of?) your drive and balance. I would think you would need to add another mast and small sail like a yawl would have, just for self steering. Using the main for steering and loosing it's drive might make the vessel unsteerable except maybe downwind. In the end vane style self steering might be easier/cheaper. Of course with two big sails, you may already be able to balance the drive in such a way as to self steer on some points of sail.

    I agree with Len's thoughts on this. 

    For effective self steering the issue isn't so much displacement, but the ability of the boat to be balanced under sail.  As Len notes, China Blue would probably need use of the existing mizzen (main) to help balance and drive the boat. 

    Another consideration is that at some point mizzen self-steering probably won't scale up economically.  That is, for larger boats the cost of a mizzen mast and sail large enough to effectively steer the boat may approach the cost of conventional vane steering.

  • 11 Feb 2022 03:35
    Reply # 12591517 on 10940457

    The lack of response to my previous submission suggests that by trying to be brief, I failed to explain my idea adequately. So, here goes again:-

    When I luff up, the mainsheet (or Mizzen sheet or traveller line) tension drops to zero. When sailing full and bye, the tension might be 10 kg (22 lbs in the USA). If I attached the end of the sheet to the lee side of the tiller, I would need to pull with 10 kg + the force needed to overcome the weather helm. So, I normally attach a small block to the mainsheet positioned just above the cleat. This gives me more motion and a 2:1 reduction in needed force, from 10 kg to 5 kg in this wind. If I lead this line to the mid point along my tiller, I only need an effort of 2.5 kg (plus weather helm) at the end of the tiller. This is readily supplied by a weight that is attached via  a block to the end of the tiller so that the weight pulls the helm down. 

    In action, when the wind comes ahead, the mainsheet tension decreases and the force from the weight is greater than force from mainsheet so the boat bears away to the new course. If the boat at falls away from the wind, or the wind strengthens, the mainsheet tension increases and the force is greater than the force from the weight,  so the boat comes up. 

    It is easy to greedy, and have the sheet lead and weight placed to get the full drive from the main in the average wind. But with this setting,  in a lull, the boat will come off the wind and may gybe.  So I try to arrange things so that in the average wind, my boat i hard on the wind and the main starting to luff. Then in a lull, she drops off, so the sail gets more drive  and we get enough mainsheet tension to steer as outlined.

    My first weights were old SCUBA weights, but a plastic milk container full of sand would do. The blocks were ones for dinghy control lines  at less than $ 10 each, so my cost was less than $20.

    If you have  wheel steering, you may need to make a drum, but a brief experiment on a friends yacht showed that we could steer her with lines lead to spokes of the wheel. In that ship,  a winch was needed for the mainsheet. So I used a lever to bend the mainsheet round 90 degree bends two points about 5 cm apart and attaching the sheet lead  about a metre along the lever. This greatly reduced the force to the helm. The line was then lead to a spoke and attached close  the wheel axle. The weight was attached to a spoke at a point close to the rim. 

    My apologies to any Physicists who object to my use of kgs as a unit of force. Yes, I know kgs  are a weight, not a force, but most of us can relate to it as a force.

  • 10 Feb 2022 16:05
    Reply # 12590125 on 12589312
    Anonymous wrote:

    I would very much like to try it on China Blue, but I wonder about the size of the mizzen and related components.The boat has been weighed at 12 tons, when picked up by the travel lift in Glasgow. I'm afraid it would have to be quite a big and cumbersome affair, requiring more resistance, and a budget in consequence.

    Any suggestion?

    From the picture you posted... my first thought would be that the mizzen (main actually) contributes a lot (most of?) your drive and balance. I would think you would need to add another mast and small sail like a yawl would have, just for self steering. Using the main for steering and loosing it's drive might make the vessel unsteerable except maybe downwind. In the end vane style self steering might be easier/cheaper. Of course with two big sails, you may already be able to balance the drive in such a way as to self steer on some points of sail.
  • 10 Feb 2022 09:33
    Reply # 12589312 on 10940457

    Thank you David!

    Besides ts simplicity, the concept is very interesting on the economic point of view, if compared to a proper windvane.

    I would very much like to try it on China Blue, but I wonder about the size of the mizzen and related components.The boat has been weighed at 12 tons, when picked up by the travel lift in Glasgow. I'm afraid it would have to be quite a big and cumbersome affair, requiring more resistance, and a budget in consequence.

    Any suggestion?

    1 file
  • 10 Feb 2022 01:57
    Reply # 12588530 on 10940457

    I haven't tried attaching files on the forum, so hopefully this will work.  If so, there should be 5 sketches attached showing the basic concept of the mizzen self-steering system.

    In use, the mizzen sail is allowed to weather cock into the wind.  Then the cross bar attached to the mizzen mast is rotated so it's perpendicular to the wind.  Once in that position, the bar is clamped to the mast and the steering lines are run through the blocks and made fast to the tiller.  

    The one exception is when close-hauled.  Then the cross bar needs to be as shown in the close-hauled sketch.  

    So far we're impressed with how well it's performed, both on our catamaran and on a trailerable monohull.   We'll be giving it a thorough test this spring and I'll post more as we learn more.  

    For more information, see our web page at:

    http://omick.net/adventure/mizzen_self_steering/mizzen_self_steering.html

    Hope this helps!
    David

    5 files
  • 05 Feb 2022 21:38
    Reply # 12577662 on 10940457

    Patrick,
    I'll try to post some sketches of the system in the next few days. 
    --David 


  • 05 Feb 2022 19:29
    Reply # 12577431 on 10940457

    David, any way you could post sketches of your new idea, for slow-understanding-minds like mine?

  • 05 Feb 2022 06:26
    Reply # 12576070 on 10940457

    Hi, David.  I shared the thought process I went through as I considered how to transfer the force of the sail down the mast.  I also added a sketch that uses a longer 2" tube that goes over the mast instead of using blocks and lines running down through blocks.  I hear you about reducing friction, that is why I was prompted to try the system I went for.  I want to  transfers the torque to a lever arm from the sail, attached firmly to the  2" tube.  At the bottom of the 2" mast outer sleeve, I will attach another lever arm with a line off each side  that leads to either side through a block at deck level and then zig zag across the stern to the tiller.  It all still hangs on the top of the mast like your system, just a much longer tube with the sail lever arm attached to the tube to transfer it down to deck level. It hangs on  the HDPE plug that I put in the top of the inner aluminum mast tube. I may put a carriage bolt at the top of the plug, as it will allow a smaller surface area for the outer tube to rotate on to lessen friction, if it appears necessary.  Terst, operate, analyze, make changes, test,operate....  It seems that everything I do ends up being modified in some fashion.  Protesting the Candian government's over reach tomorrow followed by a birthday celebration, I will get back to my project Sunday. 

    Dave


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