Freestanding masts: Why more cruisers should go wireless.

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  • 31 Jan 2022 19:14
    Reply # 12463134 on 12319697
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Anonymous wrote: Really?  How fascinating!  I had never heard about that boat.  I can't imagine how a mast would stand the loads put onto it without shrouds, but I don't pretend to have any knowledge of engineering.

    Anny ... just as any junkrig mast !

    If you have nos shrouds you have lateral bending efforts only. the compression effort are limited to the forstay and backstay; to hold the luff of the jib strait. The mast must be reinforced with carbon fiber...

    A modern exemple is the mini 6.50 (meter) ARKEMA with no shrouds, a rotating carbon mast, a wing-sail in two parts with a slot, huge jibs, running back stays and eventually foils and a round scow nose. She was a bit heavy and had good results but didn't win many races.

    The mini 6.50 rule and the associated class are a fabulous research playing ground. It's a box rule where you can experiment many thing.

    I dream of a mini 6.50 with a huge junk wing-sail, a blade jib as on the AC75 and huge asymmetrical spinnakers, running back-stays to hold the jibs; on a hull with scow nose, self regulated foils (as on the flying Moths) and under-rudder foils. It would be easy to fly, very powerfull and fast. Perfect to win the Mini transat.

    In the ARKEMA video, in French i'm afraid, the navigation part starts around minute 5.

    Eric

    https://www.qwant.com/?client=brz-moz&q=mini+6.50+Arkema+bateau&t=videos&o=0%3AYSQJPvE86-w

  • 26 Jan 2022 23:29
    Reply # 12319768 on 12319697
    Anonymous wrote:Really?  How fascinating!  I had never heard about that boat.  I can't imagine how a mast would stand the loads put onto it without shrouds, but I don't pretend to have any knowledge of engineering.
    Annie

    Have a read of this and the story of Lady Pepperell in the 1982 British Oxygen Challenge Around The World Race.

  • 26 Jan 2022 23:06
    Reply # 12319697 on 12302259
    Eric wrote:

    Bonjour

    A long time ago, almost at the dinosaur period, a French team for the Amiral Cup arrived with a boat with no shroud ! She was a pointy with forestay and backstay but with no shrouds. She win the first races rather comfortably during the Cowes week.
    At that dinosaur time the racing gauge was the « RORC » that was edited by the RORC ( Royal Ocean Racing Club). Just before the Fastnet race, the RORC modified the RORC gauge and introduced a special penalty for non shrouds boat !!!
    That boat stopped winning and since then, all pointies are equipped with shrouds !

    Eric

    PS : As said Eric Tabarly : « British are fair play especially when they win !!! »

    Really?  How fascinating!  I had never heard about that boat.  I can't imagine how a mast would stand the loads put onto it without shrouds, but I don't pretend to have any knowledge of engineering.
  • 22 Jan 2022 22:32
    Reply # 12302259 on 12260069
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Bonjour

    A long time ago, almost at the dinosaur period, a French team for the Amiral Cup arrived with a boat with no shroud ! She was a pointy with forestay and backstay but with no shrouds. She win the first races rather comfortably during the Cowes week.
    At that dinosaur time the racing gauge was the « RORC » that was edited by the RORC ( Royal Ocean Racing Club). Just before the Fastnet race, the RORC modified the RORC gauge and introduced a special penalty for non shrouds boat !!!
    That boat stopped winning and since then, all pointies are equipped with shrouds !

    Eric

    PS : As said Eric Tabarly : « British are fair play especially when they win !!! »

  • 22 Jan 2022 16:52
    Reply # 12300230 on 12293042
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Patrick wrote:

    Sorry, David, I made a mistake: my friend's catamaran is a Lavezzi 40, so 40 feet rather than 30 as I hastily wrote. But the price tag is real. So is the replacement schedule, as for what I know, it is Fountaine-Pajot recommendations.

    And I totally agree that it is exceptionnally expensive.

    Ah, one of those catamarans. I imagine there all sorts of exhorbitant costs involved in owning a boat like that. I visited onboard one for a while recently and had to keep reminding myself I was on a boat, the 'thing' seemed so unboatlike. A world away from the relatively inexpensive and simple boats owned by most JRA members.
    I have had the opportunity to make some passages on that catamaran. Last one, from France to Baleares. For me, no fun at all. Could have been the same in a camping mobile home, just a bunch of friends sharing drinks and jokes around a table. As you mention, unboatlike (I didn't have that word), for sure very far away from my idea of sailing. It seemed the only fun was trying to beat that other monohull in front, or record who made the best speed while on the helm. Then leaving it all to the autopilot, after all (was He having fun?)!



    "For me no fun at all".................     Different people have different priorities, and different uses for boats.  For some, showing off a high dollar boat is an important status thing.  For some (weekenders and fair weather sailors), the thrill of being heeled over with the lee rail under is a thrill.  For others, Pete Hill for example, it's about voyaging, and living aboard, and the safety, and lack of fatigue on weeks long passages, that a catamaran offers is a huge priority..... Not needing a leather apron against spills and a butt strap in the galley.  Being able to set your coffee cup on the table,  not constantly rolling on a downwind passage, or at anchor, being able to take shelter in the cabin and still see all around, etc.   Note both China Moon and Oryx have free standing masts with a junk rig.    "Condo cats" like the FP you describe are really big boats.  A 40' condo cat is equivalent to a much larger monohull, so of course the rigging will be expensive.  These kinds of boats are designed to soak up money.   You are looking for a Porsche or Maserati.... Obviously a ponderous motor home is not going to thrill you   ;-)     That boat will come into it's own when you have to live aboard long term while voyaging.... You can lay in the netting watching the dolphins and the seabirds.   You can lay still at anchor, launch the dinghy easily, snorkel or scuba dive..... making a  meal in the galley is not an ordeal.  When anchored off a tropical island, you don't retreat into a stifling below decks hole where you can't see anything when it's pouring rain.... When a swell wraps around the point, and everybody on monohulls are rocking and rolling and sleeping with lee cloths, you are sleeping in a berth with minimal motion.  When someone else is paying for a haul out or trying to clean a hull using a hooka or scuba...... you just beach it... depending on tidal range.....  If you get your thrills from parading your wealth and success, a beautiful "condo cat" does a pretty good job.   I remember a friend of mine "bragging" that bunkering his motor yacht cost over 20K......... I was not particularly impressed!

  • 21 Jan 2022 14:22
    Reply # 12293042 on 12290280
    Anonymous wrote:
    Patrick wrote:

    Sorry, David, I made a mistake: my friend's catamaran is a Lavezzi 40, so 40 feet rather than 30 as I hastily wrote. But the price tag is real. So is the replacement schedule, as for what I know, it is Fountaine-Pajot recommendations.

    And I totally agree that it is exceptionnally expensive.

    Ah, one of those catamarans. I imagine there all sorts of exhorbitant costs involved in owning a boat like that. I visited onboard one for a while recently and had to keep reminding myself I was on a boat, the 'thing' seemed so unboatlike. A world away from the relatively inexpensive and simple boats owned by most JRA members.
    I have had the opportunity to make some passages on that catamaran. Last one, from France to Baleares. For me, no fun at all. Could have been the same in a camping mobile home, just a bunch of friends sharing drinks and jokes around a table. As you mention, unboatlike (I didn't have that word), for sure very far away from my idea of sailing. It seemed the only fun was trying to beat that other monohull in front, or record who made the best speed while on the helm. Then leaving it all to the autopilot, after all (was He having fun?)!
  • 21 Jan 2022 06:06
    Reply # 12290851 on 12289950
    Anonymous wrote:

    It was sad that the article was only interested in hi-tech professional alternatives to a bermudian rig and didn't mention junk rig.

    From the article. :-)
    1 file
  • 21 Jan 2022 00:01
    Reply # 12290280 on 12289974
    Deleted user
    Patrick wrote:

    Sorry, David, I made a mistake: my friend's catamaran is a Lavezzi 40, so 40 feet rather than 30 as I hastily wrote. But the price tag is real. So is the replacement schedule, as for what I know, it is Fountaine-Pajot recommendations.

    And I totally agree that it is exceptionnally expensive.

    Ah, one of those catamarans. I imagine there all sorts of exhorbitant costs involved in owning a boat like that. I visited onboard one for a while recently and had to keep reminding myself I was on a boat, the 'thing' seemed so unboatlike. A world away from the relatively inexpensive and simple boats owned by most JRA members.
  • 20 Jan 2022 22:51
    Reply # 12289974 on 12260069

    Sorry, David, I made a mistake: my friend's catamaran is a Lavezzi 40, so 40 feet rather than 30 as I hastily wrote. But the price tag is real. So is the replacement schedule, as for what I know, it is Fountaine-Pajot recommendations.

    And I totally agree that it is exceptionnally expensive.

  • 20 Jan 2022 22:44
    Reply # 12289950 on 12260069

    It was sad that the article was only interested in hi-tech professional alternatives to a bermudian rig and didn't mention junk rig.

    Just for fun I'm attaching some photos of a GBP10,000 expedition yacht, with unstayed masts ,among the ice.

    3 files
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