The "Sib-Lim" Challenge

  • 15 Apr 2015 10:30
    Reply # 3299315 on 3144241
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie,

    More draught  -  or a Plan B?

    I know you have set the draught of Sib-Lim to max. 60cm, but I want to challenge this for a moment. The reason is that I think it will be hard to make such a shallow and small boat sufficiently weatherly in rough conditions. Sib-Lim will mainly be a coastal cruiser, and these can meet worse challenges than ocean cruisers do. Not only must they be able to sit out bad weather, but they also have to sail, and keep away from a lee shore. Now, with today’s high quality weather forecasts, one is able to hide away from ¾ of the storms, but then there is the last quarter, where one is caught on “the outside” of the coast.

    Let us consider a twin-keeler with one-metre draught and all outside ballast. Its ability to claw to windward against a F6 – F7 will be much more realistic than that of a boat with 2ft draught and all inside ballast. A deeper boat will not depend quite as much on beam to stay upright, and will thus not jump about as much. Remember, we are talking about a fairly small and light boat. A 33-footer of 5-6 tons is easier to design with moderate draught than a small boat.

    I understand that your reason for wanting only 2’ draught is that there is a number of shoal draught hurricane holes, which you want to get access to. My question is: If you increase the draught to 100cm, how many of these hurricane holes will be made inaccessible?

    Plan B
    Now, if the answer to that question is “almost all of them”, then I suggest a plan B: Go for a little stronger outboard engine than you (may have) thought of. I suggest the 9.9hp Yamaha with the special sail drive (3:1 reduction and 11 ¾ “ propeller). This will let you motorsail away from a lee shore in most weather, with just 2-3 panels of sail up. I found my Johanna to be incredibly efficient as a motorsailer against a stiff and gusty breeze: The engine was only set to low cruise speed, and I only had four panels up, but we still maintained 6 kts, close-hauled.

    Arne

    Last modified: 15 Apr 2015 22:30 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Apr 2015 13:26
    Reply # 3297775 on 3297364
    Annie Hill wrote:
    Peter Manning wrote:

    Annie, is it out of the question to have the hull professionally built or even built by a competent amateur and for you to fit her out as I did with Malliemac? It still took me a long time but that was because of numerous interruptions mainly of my own making.

    Yes.  My entire capital is about what a back bench MP earns in a year!

    & if you were an MP you could easily afford it on 'expenses' !!
  • 14 Apr 2015 07:50
    Reply # 3297630 on 3144241
    Deleted user

    Hey Annie.

    Thanks for the reply, we are narrowing things down. Give me a couple of days to update the sjetches.


    /Hampus

  • 14 Apr 2015 01:02
    Reply # 3297368 on 3297200
    Gary Pick wrote:

    Maybe not possible but would it be possible to convert Fantail to a bilge keel configuration?

    I'd thought about that Gary, but the keel flows down from the hull and then has the ballast attached at the bottom, just like a conventional wooden boat.  I suppose anything is possible, but it would be well beyond my capacities and probably wouldn't cost much less than a new boat.  And I'd still have a fibreglass boat and engine that are 30 years old.
  • 14 Apr 2015 00:57
    Reply # 3297364 on 3295942
    Peter Manning wrote:

    Annie, is it out of the question to have the hull professionally built or even built by a competent amateur and for you to fit her out as I did with Malliemac? It still took me a long time but that was because of numerous interruptions mainly of my own making.

    Yes.  My entire capital is about what a back bench MP earns in a year!
  • 13 Apr 2015 22:07
    Reply # 3297200 on 3144241

    Maybe not possible but would it be possible to convert Fantail to a bilge keel configuration?

  • 13 Apr 2015 09:37
    Reply # 3295942 on 3144241
    Deleted user

    Annie, is it out of the question to have the hull professionally built or even built by a competent amateur and for you to fit her out as I did with Malliemac? It still took me a long time but that was because of numerous interruptions mainly of my own making.

  • 13 Apr 2015 06:47
    Reply # 3295864 on 3295363
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Annie, dare I ask how long a building period you will accept for such a project?
    I ask because I have seen too many projects that took forever to finish. I still wonder if there could be a secondhand boat available which keel- and rudder-wise could be modified to shallow draft, without needing to have the interior, cockpit and deck structure rebuilt.  A boat with a lead (fin) keel could have most of the keel cut off, to the desired draught, and then the now free lead could be re-molten into inside ballast. Far from all hulls would accept this treatment, but a few of them would.

    I know, you have been through some building projects before, but then you were two about sharing the work.

    I hate the idea of you getting stuck in a project that grew too big.

    Arne, you have put your finger on the fatal flaw of the whole concept.  Am I up to doing this?  Do I have the stamina to see it through?  I keep asking myself the same questions.

    I have been looking on Trade Me for quite some time now (the website on which pretty much every boat that is for sale in NZ, is listed) and there is really nothing that would suit: a 1970s Eventide, perhaps: a 1980s trailer sailer.  In a country of only 4,000,000 people, that is isolated by a rather rough piece of water from its nearest neighbour, the choice is anyway limited and one of the problems with the NZ 'fleet' is that it is rapidly ageing, so I would be taking on a number of problems, together with all the advantages that go with a boat already in existence.  Another issue with a boat of this size, is that most of them have side decks, which make it difficult to build in a roomy and comfortable interior.  Believe me, if I could find something that would do the job, I would seriously consider it.

    I would hope to have the bulk of the work done in about a year - I reckon I could keep going that long.  I can imagine all the finishing off could easily take another 6 months, but most of that is less arduous work. I do have a good friend (a boatbuilder) who has offered to help me with the difficult joinery and other jobs, but of course I can't afford to hire labour.

    In the end, I might just end up with Fantail, and there are far worse fates, but the 5ft of draught is a continuing irritation!  However, dreams are cheap and I am only too aware of what sort of project I would be taking on if I go ahead with building my Perfect Boat.
  • 12 Apr 2015 18:30
    Reply # 3295363 on 3144241
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie,

    dare I ask how long a building period you will accept for such a project?
    I ask because I have seen too many projects that took forever to finish. I still wonder if there could be a secondhand boat available which keel- and rudder-wise could be modified to shallow draft, without needing to have the interior, cockpit and deck structure rebuilt.  A boat with a lead (fin) keel could have most of the keel cut off, to the desired draught, and then the now free lead could be re-molten into inside ballast. Far from all hulls would accept this treatment, but a few of them would.

    I know, you have been through some building projects before, but then you were two about sharing the work.

    I hate the idea of you getting stuck in a project that grew too big.

    Arne

     

  • 12 Apr 2015 04:02
    Reply # 3294969 on 3256143
    Hampus Mattsson wrote: Hey Annie.

    I'm quite busy myself so don't worry about taking your time. Yeah, you would have to reach back to pull the rudder up. Depending on what system you use to connect your trim tab to your airvane it could be modified to work. I have experience both with the trim tab type of windvanes and servo pendulum types and I find the servo pendulum to be superior. In all fairness though, I have used them on very different boats so the comparison might be flawed. The trim tab version was on a 15 ton 12 meter ketch and the servo pendulum was used on a 6 ton 9 meter Scandinavian double ender. A rudder that folds up would be OK as well. Preferrably with a locking pin that brakes if you hit a log or whatever else.

    I find the idea of having to lean over the stern to pull up the rudder just as I'm about to come into anchor a bit of a worry.  I sail single-handed of course and would like to keep everything as foolproof as possible.  I would prefer a trim-tab type of self-steering: they are less vulnerable and don't get tangled up with the dinghy anywhere nears as much as a servo pendulum type.

    Using the leeboards as legs would require a locking mechanism which wouldn't be too difficult to accomplish. If you dry out on very soft bottoms they would sink in though as they are vertical. I've actually seen fin keeled boats sit absolutely straight with their entire keels sunk down into the mud in Holland and Germany, enough to make you wonder if they'll float free when the tide comes back in.

    Some of the Northland mud is exceedingly soft and I would certainly have to plan my trips to and from shore accordingly.  However, quite a lot of it isn't and I want to dry out essentially upright.  The plan is to dry out very often, not just on the odd occasion: places like Great Barrier Island have numerous very deep anchorages and more than a few bays that are silted up at the head.  The latter would provide splendid protection, but just about dry out even on neap tides.

    On the other hand while being more effective as supports and also hydro dynamically, canting leeboards would be quite vulnerable unless heavily built as they could be subjected to significant shear stress if you were unlucky enough to settle on or float free from the bottom with a swell coming on. One option would be to make the bottom very flat. The downsides would be that the you would have more slamming while beating into a chop and also added whetted surface which is undesirable. The worst downside would be that we'd have to loose the skeg which would indeed reduce the whetted surface but you'd also loose the protection it provides for the rudder which, in my humble (or perhaps not so humble) opinion, would render the boat unsafe for anything but close coastal cruising in sheltered waters.

    I entirely agree with you about protecting the rudder.

    Another option would be to add small bilge keels so that the boat would rest on the keel and the bilge keels. This would also increase the whetted surface but it could to some degree be compensated using a smaller skeg. They would also produce some turbulence which will create drag.

    Bilge keels would also increase the draught, which I would like to keep at about 2 ft - 600 mm

    The construction is light in a sense that when measuring strength/weight it will actually rival steel in some aspects. It is by no means weak. If you plan on hitting a lot of hard objects though steel would be the way to go as while most other materials found in boats would crack, steel will just buckle, and with a decently sized sledge hammer you'll be able to unbuckle it :)

    OK, I'm quite happy if you mean 'light' as in 'carefully engineered'.  Nothing on earth would induce me to live on another steel boat, let alone build one!

    The outboard would go on a mounting bracket offset to either side of the rudder.

    No, sorry.  My view is that I'm going for the simplicity of an outboard over an inboard, with all its ancillaries, but I don't want one sitting off the stern.  It would be exposed not only to the elements but to the more light-fingered elements of the population.  And I want the prop to stay in the water if I'm motoring in a wind-against-tide situation.

    Using a well for the outboard would take away the big advantage not having an engine using up a lot of space that could otherwise be used for storing... beer? or Beans perhaps?

    I'll manage to find room for both - I brew my own beer!

    There would be plenty of space on deck for both dinghy and solar panel. No bridge deck but a threshold to keep the water out. I put a new picture with some measurements here. With an arrangement like this there would be, literally, tons of storage in the cockpit so shortening the berths would not be necessary.

    I used a standard toilets as I was lazy and reused something from my library of previously modeled items. I hear you on the composting toilet though. Standing headroom at the galley would be just shy of 1.7 meters. I was thinking of a chart table folding down onto the sink counter from the aft bulkhead. 

    I don't think that the chart table idea would work for me, because I do tend to use my galley under way.  But one of the advantages of a small boat is that the saloon table isn't that much further forward than where a chart table would be!

    Yes, the cockpit should be shrunk in favor of galley space. This will however require a redesign as the appearance of the boat would be altered quite a bit and I'g have to come up with something different. I'm happy to do that though.

    Now a few questions:

    • What would you like the entry arrangements to be like? They don't affect too many other parameters so you are quite free in choosing as long as you don't want the vault door from Fort Knox.

    I want an arrangement very similar to that which I have presently on Fantail.  I love this arrangement and for me, can't see any way of improving on it.  Some photos of this can be seen in my photo albums here.

    • Did I get it correctly that you don't need the bunks to be longer than 1.8 meters? while this is fine it would severely reduce the number of potential buyers should you ever want to sell the boat.

    Yes, you did get that right.  I have never considered the potential buyer of any boat I've owned and I've never had a problem selling one.  For every person who wants great, long bunks, there is a person who doesn't!  Besides, I'm hoping to leave this boat feet first.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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