Maxi 77 junk rig conversion

  • 19 Jul 2023 21:37
    Reply # 13229946 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Bonjour Paul

    I've seen on youtube, but I didn't kept the link a video of a boat with a similar mast holding system.

    The two rear arms were fixed to the winch supports.

    I'll try and recover it.

    Amicalement

    Eric

  • 19 Jul 2023 20:51
    Reply # 13229927 on 13226713

    Arne and Graeme,

    first of all, thank you very much for sketching even more sail plans! I'll get to those further below.

    I value both of your advice regarding the mast foot and tabernacle issue  a lot. I also fully understand that it would be way easier to have a thru-deck tabernacle. Yet, giving up the V-berth really is not an option. I do like the ease of just getting up, set up the kettle and start the day. Re-arranging the saloon from sleeping mode to day mode is something I really want to omit (I am a lazy bum - sometimes). Also, from a social point of view, when living together in such a confined space it is very helpful to have two "separate" rooms from time to time. This may not apply to every relationship, but we learned during the one year long sailing trip on our former boat, that being able to seclude oneself for some hours or even some ten minutes is crucial for the well-being of our relationship. A separate salon and V-berth makes a huge difference here, even if only separated by a curtain. (also, I just finished some cozy, seagras-stuffed mattresses for the v-berth this spring. Don't want to give up on them)

    Yet, I like the challenge of designing this above-deck tabernacle structure. Probably it will be ugly, heavy, adding a lot of windage ... people will laugh at me and point to the next thrash yard. Still, I want to test this idea of mine.

    Attached are some crude sketches of the above-deck tabernacle (really need to practice hand-drawing...). Also, the actual deck layout and hull above water as foto reference. It can be seen that the hatch is located at the front end of the v-shaped deck step.

    The tabernacle would stand on transversal beams. Those could be two diagonal full beams (a) or one transversal full beam with two diagonal half beams (b). There are points for each design:

    version (a) definitely shows longer beams, thus requiring stiffer beams. Yet, they would allow diagonal tube in four almost opposing directions. For every wind direction, there would be beams with tension load and beams with compression loads.

    Version (b) would allow one shorter beam length because it is transversal -> less stiffness required. Only two diagonal tubes for the rig moment would be required as a minimum. However, load distribution of the mast moment would not be as smooth: for all wind directions except dead running, one diagonal tube will be heavily loaded with compression load. Not favourable, tension loads are more forgiving than compression loads (buckling, etc.).

    All these challenges would be manageable, its just a matter of sufficient dimensioning. I will have to decide which option would be the most simple and most failsafe. By now, I tend to a modified version (b): only one able transversal beam, no diagonal beams at all. And then only two able tubes leading diagonally backwards (just as the diagonal half beams I've sketched in (b)).

    Material for the tabernacle could be stainless steel (expensive, shiny, heavy), galvanized steel (cheap, ugly, heavy) or heavily fibreglassed plywood (cheap, light)... By now I tend to galvanized steel or fibreglass.

    The whole above-deck structure would be mounted by only four bolt connections to the hull. The connection points would be stiffened from inside as shown in the detail drawing. The inside stiffeners would not be too big in dimension. Their main function would be to better distribute the loads into the hull. Other than showed in the sketch, I would probably extend them more inwards at the deck area (to be more like a knee panel), thus reducing the distortion of deck and hull. Material for the stiffeners could be stainless steel or fibreglass... Probably the later one.


    Paul

    6 files
  • 19 Jul 2023 19:39
    Reply # 13229883 on 13228049
    Anonymous wrote:

    Paul, I can see the point in that a mast or tabernacle through the v-berth may be a bit antisocial. However, you will only want a full size berth when in harbour. Under way, you will need a secure sea-berth for the one off watch.

    What about bringing your metre stick on board and try figure out how to make a ‘wall-to-wall’ harbour berth in the main cabin? The original Bermudan mast support will not be needed any more, so there will be plenty of room. You may have to make a new table (or modify the one you have), but this seems to me to be a much easier job than designing and making an over-deck tabernacle. The tabernacle through deck can also be offset a bit to starboard (10-15cm). That way you sacrifice one bed, but retains a good one.

    In harbour the forepeak can serve as a private loo, and suddenly there will even be room for a wash basin on the starboard side.

    As for sail area, I would not recommend more than 35sqm, The sail of my IF, Ingeborg would fit...

    Anyway, good luck.

    Arne


    Arne, that idea of yours to make a 'wall-to-wall' berth was quite interesting (I understand you mean to have transversal berths). Now as I am 2 m tall, I won't fit like this into the little Maxi... Even more, because my body height, already the starboard locker lost its forward wall. It's locker function was thus reduced to only one single wall instead of storing space, what a pity! However, your idea made me fidling with the meter stick for hours, and the outcome is, that the V-berth will be extended to the longitudinal location of the stern wall of the lockers :)

    I definitely see your point regarding the secure sea-berth for the one off watch. This surely will be very interesting for long passages. However, as we plan to sail around Sweden in 2024, I expect to not be more than lets say 10 nights. For the rest of the six months we will probably spent the nights at anchor (and a few in harbours).

    Paul

  • 15 Jul 2023 12:17
    Reply # 13228209 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul,
    now I have had a second run (since it is still raining).

    I simply copied the sail of my Ingeborg over onto your boat. The mast position is the same, but a through-deck  tabernacle has been added, as short one as possible.
    I am not sure if I like this rig, as to me it appears to be on the tall side. The problem is not the sail area (SA/disp. = 22.4), which can be reefed away, but the weight and windage of the taller mast. After all, you are planning to take your boat offshore. The first sail (AR =1.80) I drew up for you would only need a 9.80m tall mast with the tabernacle.

    Arne

    (Full size diagram on Arne's sketches, Section 7-23)

    Last modified: 15 Jul 2023 15:29 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Jul 2023 00:12
    Reply # 13228127 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I agree with Arne that re-arranging the internal accommodation will be a more practical solution than trying to invent a tabernacle with an entirely above-deck structure. The alternative use of forepeak, as suggested by Arne, I think is your best option - and it is more than likely that when at sea, you will end up finding that one of your midship single berths is more comfortable for the person off watch, than the forward berth anyway. The only real challenge is working out a clever way of quickly re-arranging the sleeping arrangements in the main cabin, for when you are not sailing.

    I don't understand your sentence: For the mast position, this would allow the mast to be placed backwards up to the front hatch, so about 300-400 mm further aft.

    A second best possibility, just for the sake of bouncing ideas (and because you expressed an interest in SJR) here is a look at what a SJR might look like:


    The mast centreline (or thru-deck tabernacle) would come down through the companionway between your toilet and hand basin. The forward cabin with double berth remains intact, but for easy access, the mast would probably have to be offset (not a game changer) and either the toilet or the hand basin would probably need to go. If there is only going to be two of you, a portable toilet might be an option. The rig might need to be raised slightly to ensure there is room below the boom for running parrel-downhaul spans, which are a feature of this rig. Also, to match the sail area that Arne has given you, you would need to have a bit more mast height than Arne's rig requires. On the other hand, the weight of the mast is a little further aft, closer to the designed weight distribution, which is all to the good.

    Shown is a copy of the Amiina Mkll rig which is designed by Slieve McGalliard - I don't think he will object to me using this as a discussion example - I can vouch for its excellence as a sail design and would recommend further consultation with Slieve if it interests you. I would not recommend altering its proportions, but you could scale it up or down a little. I have no doubt your high performance hull would get the best out of this sail, and if it were me (because I have grown to like this sail very much) I would give it consideration. (That is just me, personally - and I should add - I don't have a wide range of experience in regard to junk rig). I think most people would agree that the proposition put forward by Arne is probably your best choice because of internal arrangement considerations, which may be more important to you than they would be to me.

    Either rig [or possibly something in between] is doable, and in any case I would expect your boat will be an especially good performer under a modern cambered junk rig.

    Last modified: 15 Jul 2023 01:53 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Jul 2023 21:49
    Reply # 13228049 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul, I can see the point in that a mast or tabernacle through the v-berth may be a bit antisocial. However, you will only want a full size berth when in harbour. Under way, you will need a secure sea-berth for the one off watch.

    What about bringing your metre stick on board and try figure out how to make a ‘wall-to-wall’ harbour berth in the main cabin? The original Bermudan mast support will not be needed any more, so there will be plenty of room. You may have to make a new table (or modify the one you have), but this seems to me to be a much easier job than designing and making an over-deck tabernacle. The tabernacle through deck can also be offset a bit to starboard (10-15cm). That way you sacrifice one bed, but retains a good one.

    In harbour the forepeak can serve as a private loo, and suddenly there will even be room for a wash basin on the starboard side.

    As for sail area, I would not recommend more than 35sqm, The sail of my IF, Ingeborg would fit...

    Anyway, good luck.

    Arne


  • 14 Jul 2023 13:06
    Reply # 13227751 on 13226713

    Hi Arne,

    wow, what a reply! Thanks for your effort and the sketch, this was really quick. I like the look of the junk rig on the Maxi 77. It really suits her :)

    I agree with you about the hull shape being a good candidate. The rudder is quite large, but if necessary, the lateral area of the rudder could easily be increased.

    Now that you already drew a sketch, I should mention some further design constraints and ideas: As both my girlfriend and me have to fit into the V-berth, I can't take away more space there to put in the mast. It would not be to much an issue for daysailing, but we want to sail around Sweden from April to Oktober next year, so would need any space under deck which is available...

    The mast will be in a tabernacle, to quickly lower it. For this tabernacle, I am thinking of something special (but probably ugly...): It should be totally above deck, with no party protruding through the deck. This means, that one able transversal girder needs to be located above deck, which supports the bottom of the tabernacle. The top of the tabernacle needs then to be stiffened sideways, by diagonal beams. The whole thing would be mounted to the hull by only four screw, located at the toe rail (which of course will have to be stiffened from inside).  I try to sketch some details next week or so.

    By this rather radical design, there will be no space lost at all under deck. Of course this will increase windage on the bow as well as probably be not looking too yacht-like. However, I regard my boat as a work boat rather then a yacht.

    Also, I want the front hatch to be usable.

    For the mast position, this would allow the mast to be placed backwards up to the front hatch, so about 300-400 mm further aft.


    About the sailing area: With the bermudan rig, the main sail has 10 m², the fock has 7.5 m², the genua I has 24 m² and the spinnacker has 50 m². This makes for a total SA of 34 m² with main and genua.

    With the junk rig, I would like to increase the SA to about 35-40 m². She is not heeling that much due to the balast located in the bulb keel. Also I prefer to just be reefing earlier, and have a lot of sail in ligth winds. Also, according to your sketch this could be achieved by extending the sail more to the front, with the positive side effect of more mast balance.

    Any thoughts on this preliminary ideas?

    By now, it is all just ideas and sketches in my head. I will need to actually calculate the stiffness of this special tabernacle, and maybe readjust. However, my gut tells me the loads will be manageable.


    Cheers,

    Paul


  • 13 Jul 2023 12:43
    Reply # 13227232 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul,

    thanks to the rainy weather the last couple of days, I have recently done some in-door playing with junkrigs.
    I find the Maxi 77 to be a good candidate for JR conversion, with her good-transom-hung rudder.
    I started with looking for a place to fit the mast. To avoid colliding with the WC, I moved it 30cm forward of that bulkhead. This gives enough room for building a strong maststep. However, this mast position calls for a fairly (not extremely) broad sail with moderate mast balance (i.e. sail in front of the mast). The CE of the resulting sail sits about where the Bermudan mast sits now. The way it has been rigged will let you shift the sail a bit forward or aft to hopefully get the helm balance perfect.

    Have a look.

    Arne

    (Full size diagram on Arne's sketches, Section 7-22)


    Last modified: 15 Jul 2023 15:30 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 13 Jul 2023 09:45
    Reply # 13227182 on 13226713

    Hi Frank,

    thanks for the hints, I'm going to get in touch!

    Cheers, Paul

  • 12 Jul 2023 10:55
    Reply # 13226718 on 13226713

    Hello and welcome Paul,

    Tony and Kay are both located near Lübeck. My boat will hopefully be ready to sail next spring/summer and I'm located near Stralsund, but which is probably to far for a day trip.

    Frank

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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