Freestanding mast conversion help needed.

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  • 26 Aug 2023 07:50
    Reply # 13245990 on 13240940

    Apologies for my late reply guys. Thank you all for your responses! The owners manual was ever so useful to consult again (I had a slightly different version I think so there was some new stuff in there). Also thanks for the in depth information on the mast lifting/lowering. You interpreted my question perfectly! Finally, thanks for the heads up about mast bases!

    warmest regards,


    Zachary

  • 21 Aug 2023 10:17
    Reply # 13243449 on 13240940

    Netherlands Westerly Club might be more use than the UK based Westerly Owners Assoc:

    https://www.westerlyclub.nl/WORDPRESS/

    are you absolutely sure the Pageant mast doesn't tilt backwards on its mast-step?




    1 file
    Last modified: 21 Aug 2023 10:25 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Aug 2023 06:21
    Reply # 13243435 on 13240940
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Zachary asks: Why does one "lift" the mast off?

    I struggled to understand your question, but I think I’ve got it now.

    I think you are describing the scenario where the new mast is up and locked in position, and you are now disposing of the old mast. If the old mast is keel-stepped then obviously it needs to be lifted out before it can be taken away. Hence “lift”.

    But I think now you are referring to the old mast being deck-stepped, and you want to know why it can’t be lowered down by its halyard from the new mast, masthead to masthead perhaps, with the old mast pivoting on its heel (and thereby carrying some of its own weight) until the point where it is fully lowered.

    Good question.

    By rough calculation I think the force F on the halyard required to do this will be at the maximum about 0.7 x W   (W being the actual weight of the mast), assuming the two masts are of approximately equal length, and stepped very close to each other - and that maximum will occur when the old mast is in the horizontal position.  


    (W/2) / F = sin45 = .707     so   F= approximately 0.7 x W

    (Better get someone to check that, I’m getting a bit doddery in my old age.)

    So doing it that way puts a bit less strain on the old halyard and its block – and quite a lot less during the early stages of lowering, though it does put more of a “side strain” on the halyard block fitting, and bending force on the top of both masts, and can only be done if there is a clear space right there, to take the length of the new mast when it is down. 

    On the other hand, if the old mast is lifted clear and then lowered, the weight on the halyard will be W, the full weight of the mast while it is off the ground, throughout the entire process – but the new mast will be then mainly only under compression, not so much bending - and as you say, it might be easier to do it that way to allow the crew to grab the bottom of the mast and swing it around before it is lowered, to get it to touch ground where you want it, if other objects are in the way or if space considerations dictate that. I suppose if the rigging screws are slacked off but not removed, you might have a chance to do a little "trial lift" before being totally committed - but I don't know if that would be practical in your situation or how much you could make of that as a safety precaution - its just a thought.

    If I have understood your question correctly I think that is about all there is to it – more than anything else I think it is just a question of which way is the most practical. In either case do take care as you are still relying on the integrity of the old mast and its halyard and block. I have actually seen a mast fall and crash full length on the ground. Miraculously no-one was under it, and it fell neatly between two parked boats and wasn't even damaged as far as I could see. Its up to you to ensure that no-one is standing directly underneath its vertical path of descent if the halyard were to break, and that the path of descent is clear of your car and anything else of value, while you are lowering it, just in case something gives way. That requires a little bit of forethought, rather than “bravery pills”, and ensures that in that unlikely scenario the only thing damaged is the old mast.


    Last modified: 22 Aug 2023 01:32 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Aug 2023 17:22
    Reply # 13243248 on 13243187
    Anonymous wrote:

    Why does one "lift" the mast off?

    I don't know about your boat but in my case, the mast will not pivot because the bottom sits on the deck and not the bolt that holds it in place. So in order to pivot the mast, in my case, the forward or aft end of mast would have to go through the top of the cabin. Some trailer sailors do have the bolt high enough they can pivot. If you have such a boat, it should be obvious just looking at the base of the mast.

    In general, I find that when I think about these kinds of questions, I think also in terms of how I would do this on _my_ boat. Often times this does not apply to whoever asked the question in the first place.

    Last modified: 20 Aug 2023 17:26 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Aug 2023 12:00
    Reply # 13243187 on 13240940

    Thank you for your detailed explanation with pictures too. It really helps! Why does one "lift" the mast off?

    In my head I'd thought I could leave the heel in place as a pivot while supporting the mast top with the old halyard led to the top of the free standing mast. I'd make sure side the side is supported. Once the mast was down take the bolt out and attach wires to mast...

    Now I'm wondering whether the mast is lifted because it supports the centre of mass and then the manoeuvring crew have more positive control over the extremities?

  • 18 Aug 2023 22:11
    Reply # 13242883 on 13240940
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Yes, a procedure I had planned with the conversion of a Pelorus (NZ design) which never went ahead, was to prepare new partners and mast step for the new mast, use the old mast and its halyard to step the new mast, then reverse the procedure and use the new mast and its halyard to lift out the old mast.

    I did not mention it before, because the project stalled and I never actually did it. But the two mast positions were fairly close together and I think that perhaps with a little extra help, and taking it step by step, it should have been no problem.

    However, I planned to be cautious and gentle with the first lift, testing the weight a little before fully committing, as the old halyard and its masthead block would not have been designed for that sort of lift and had not been been inspected prior. If anything were to fail mechanically that is where the failure would occur. 

    Of course, the halyard, masthead crane and halyard tackle of the new mast would have been built with lifting out the old mast in mind, and made strong enough to carry the weight of the old mast, so no worries with the second lift. As I say, I never actually did it - but it has been done that way. If you scroll back down through the Boat of the Month archive (here) to May 2021 you will see Alex described how he used his old mast as a crane to install his new mast ("After a couple of unsuccessful attempts at stepping the mast, it dawned on me to use the original as a crane, as all the chainplates are still in place. This works brilliantly.")  and he may well be reading this post and can confirm. Just be a little cautious when lifting the new mast with the old mast and tackle, and test it out a bit before getting too committed.


    If you can get the new mast up using a tabernacle, as you are suggesting, or to some extent if you can use the old mast and another pole as a derrick, as Asmat has described, then you are not relying so much on the old mast and its gear, so you are half way there and need only fully rely on your own engineering of the new mast/crane/halyard/blocks in order to lift out the old one. In that case, there should be much less to be concerned about.

    Make sure your attachment point of the lifting gear is above the centre of gravity of the mast being lifted (including the weight of its rigging, which will hang down from the top, and is significant!)  as in 1 -  or, if it is more convenient to attach the lifting gear to the bottom of the mast or a point lower than the centre of gravity, then you can do that provided you put a tie or loose loop around the mast at a point above the centre of gravity, to achieve the same effect, as in diagram 2



    I think you are wise to be careful and cautious, but should not need to "take bravery pills".

    Last modified: 19 Aug 2023 05:39 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 Aug 2023 20:55
    Reply # 13242839 on 13240940

    Thank you so much for taking the time to respond guys! That gives me allot to work with.

    I’m thinking:

    A. Take bravery pills

    B. Fit tabernacle (fix delaminating foredeck while I’m at it)… fixing delaminating decks… can that be done with the boat in the water? What are your experiences with repairs like those?

    C. Step mast.

    D. Use halyard to help lift out old mast.


    Once again, thanks for your help guys. I really appreciate it.

  • 18 Aug 2023 18:24
    Reply # 13242755 on 13240940

    When I converted my Kingfisher 26, my junk mast position was several feet forward of the original one. I used the spinnaker boom as a derrick to lift the new mast aboard and step it, then used my new junk halyard to unstep the old one - no derrick needed to lift a deck stepped mast out of its socket. I wish I'd taken a photo of Antares while both masts were standing.

  • 18 Aug 2023 07:54
    Reply # 13242520 on 13240940
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I guess this is the photo Annie is referring to

    and here are the two relevant excerpts  from her magazine article (magazine #58)

    (Pulling the old mast): "The usual route for me to have taken would have been to hire a crane, but this was going to cost several hundred dollars and I don’t have many. Instead I consulted with my friend Dick, on Irene, one of the most competent sailors it has been my good fortune to meet. Brought up around smacks and Thames barges, Dick knows how to use low cunning instead of raw power. We arranged to bring Joshua alongside his Irene – a large gaff ketch – and use her gear for pulling out the mast. My friend Ulla assisted, Pat took photos and provided tea and the whole thing went like clockwork, as anyone w h o k n o w s D i c k w o u l d h a v e a n t i c i p a t e d..."

    (Putting in the new mast): "As La Racina is considerably smaller than Irene, we needed far more brute force and bad language, but at last we had the heel of the mast over the hole and quickly slacked away a little on the halliard. More pushing and pulling on deck and then Bruce and I went below to haul the heel back, that was inclined to sit on my bunk. Once it was past the half bulkhead, it gave up the fight and as it was slowly lowered, moved gradually down and into its step. To my profound astonishment, I might add. To the sound of much rejoicing, we released all the lines, I tapped in some temporary wedges and we all stood back to admire The New Mast. I was rather proud of it."

    I hope that encourages you Zachary ...


    Last modified: 19 Aug 2023 05:34 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 Aug 2023 00:57
    Reply # 13242440 on 13240940
    I removed Fantail's mast by going alongside a friend's boat and using his halyard to raise and then lower the mast.  I have some photos, but sadly, they are on an inaccessible hard drive.  However, there is a photo of it happening in issue 58 of the magazine.
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