Junk Schooner Rig for Endeavor 37

  • 02 Dec 2021 21:09
    Reply # 12160932 on 12139831

    FWIW, I don't recall there was a problem with looking at Badger's foresail, although, obviously, a lot of it was hidden.  I could see the luff and that was all I needed to  sail to windward (although to be fair, the boat sailed herself to windward in inshore waters) and I could tell by the pull on the sheet if it was pulling properly off the wind.  I don't recall every feeling that it was a nuisance, not being able to see the entire sail.  And of course I could, if we were sailing wing and wong!

  • 23 Nov 2021 18:27
    Reply # 12144758 on 12139831
    Thanks for sending along that report on the 2010 rally.  The photos and text regarding Joanna are providing very useful information for me.
  • 23 Nov 2021 09:42
    Reply # 12143962 on 12139831
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    great minds think alike! Nowadays, when cameras and video screens are cheap, and use next to no power, your idea is very logic. One could even be tempted to have more than one camera and lead the video signals down below ☺...
    (And while we are at it; add an electric capstan to raise the sail with)

    As for the maximum size of a sail, I think the main factor to stay out of trouble is to have the sails rigged so that the sheet will not tangle or set at awkward angles. The foresail sheet of that Samson cannot be said to be totally trouble-free (mainsail 70sqm, fore 37). I would say there is much less fuzz with handling the big main than the foresail. I used to have a boat with a sloop JR of 48sqm (Johanna), and that worked just fine (see report from 2010 rally: http://goo.gl/KIOwkH  ).

    The mizzen of a yawl does much of the same balancing of the sailplan as you schooners did. Paul Thompson recently described the mizzen of his Canard Bleu as an “air rudder”.

    In the end, when converting an already existing boat, the challenge of finding useful mast positions may well dictate what sort of rig to choose.


    Last modified: 23 Nov 2021 10:14 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Nov 2021 23:10
    Reply # 12143225 on 12139831

    The size of the mainsail in your yawl concept was the first thought I had when I saw your sketch.  Wow - monster to get up, and heaven help you if you get everything tangled up in a bad jibe.  I had a Gazelle (and there were a few of those bad jibes, one way out at sea that I would prefer to forget), and at the moment a Ganley 30; both with sails of about 450 sf - that is as big a junk sail I think I want to deal with.

    The advantages of different sailplans can be debated forever, but for me, the advantage of a junk ketch or schooner rig is that on a reach or upwind, it is like riding a train down a set of tracks.  Once balanced, the vessel just wants to keep going the same direction.  I found that a really handy trait on long passages such as Mexico to Hawai'i.  My junk sloop rig (the Ganley) lacks that characteristic. 

    But I know exactly what you mean about not being able to see the foresail.  I did a lot of getting up from the helm and peeking under the main to get a view of the foresail on the Gazelle, and out at sea the less roaming around you do on a gigantic open Gazelle deck between the steering position (top of aft cabin) and the aft end of the main cabin, the safer you are.  I hated crossing that gap.  On the Endeavor, with a single raised cabin and a steering position next to the transom, the problem would be much worse.

    Well here is a modern thought - cars come with rear facing cameras these days - really handy when parking next a city curb.  Why not put a forward facing camera on deck by the mainmast, looking up at the fore?  Put a transparent dome over it to keep spray off - voila! an eye on the fore while staying put in the cockpit or below decks in Annie Hill fashion.  (sorry Annie but your bubble dome and staying below are famous)  Any comments about this issue from junk schooner or ketch sailors?

  • 21 Nov 2021 21:52
    Reply # 12141151 on 12139831
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Ah, better luck next time, Paul.

    As for me suggesting that yawl as an alternative to schooner, I think it is both easier to make and rig, and easier to handle too, as long as the mainsail doesn’t get way too big, and the mast too heavy. I find that when I crew in my friend’s schooner (Samson), the view to the foresail is completely blocked by the mainsail, and then there is the chance for the foresail sheet to catch the battens of the main. In practice, one must go forward and check.

    The yawl gives one the simplicity and performance (almost) of the sloop without having to struggle with steering on a reach. As you can see on the sail plan, the total CE can be shifted as much as 81cm aft from the CE of the main, just by a light tug on the mizzen sheet. This means that one has fingertip control of the balance, and the boat will even sail itself much of the time.

    The shown mainsail is 60sqm. I guess an electric capstan would be useful to hoist that sail. Electric energy consumption to hoist the sail is very low - I know from using my electric winch handle on my Ingeborg. Btw, the shown sail is a scaled up version of Ingeborg’s sail.

    That mizzen is meant to be cut flat from some strong canvas, and being set most of the time. Furling is on the mast, with a final tight wrapping by using the halyard.


    Samson, making 7.7kts...

    Last modified: 21 Nov 2021 21:56 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 21 Nov 2021 19:05
    Reply # 12140922 on 12139831

    That is an interesting idea, Arne.  Unfortunately I just got a text msg. saying that the Endeavor owner has accepted someone else's offer.  He was asking half what other Endeavor owner's are asking for, so I guess I'm not surprised!

  • 21 Nov 2021 09:04
    Reply # 12140239 on 12139831
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Would a yawl rig be an idea? This could be designed with the mainsail giving some lee helm and the mizzen sheeted in just enough to balance her out. The main mast would sit quite far forward on such a rig, so must be of fairly lightweight material (carbon?). On the other hand, you avoid some structural issues with a free-standing mast through the trunk cabin.

    Worth considering?

    Anyway, good luck!


    PS: Something like this. The mainmast will collide with the v-berth, but it will be easy to fit, structurally. 

    Last modified: 21 Nov 2021 16:21 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 21 Nov 2021 01:47
    Message # 12139831

    Have any of you seen an Endeavor 37 converted to junk schooner?  I am about to go see one in very nice shape - well except for well-aged standing rigging and sails.  So rather than replacing the running rigging and building a new set of marconi sloop rig sails, why not go with a junk schooner rig?  I will be looking at it with an eye to issues associated with creating mast steps and partners.  I'm guessing the masts would be well forward in the v-berth and aft of the salon table.  Does this seem like a good idea?  I have previously sailed a Colvin Gazelle - junk schooner with jib, and a Ganley 30 - single flat cut junk sail.  I would love to have another junk schooner so the issue is whether the Endeavor is a good boat to do this.  Supposedly they are not good upwind and develop a lot of weather helm unless a bowsprit is added.  The junk schooner rig could deal nicely with the weather helm issue, and the hull shape is what it is.  I have attached a file with two drawings - interior layout and sail + hull sketch (sans bowsprit), and a second file with some data from sailboatdata.com for those willing to take a look and provide me a bit of advice.  If any of you know a naval architect you would recommend for developing a sailplan for the conversion, please feel free to pass along recommendations.

    2 files
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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