Some lateral thinking for Christmas.

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  • 03 Jan 2022 20:30
    Reply # 12235461 on 12227324

    your experience with deep reefing is perfectly opposite of mine. I find that my sails stand better and better the more I reef, at least down to two panels.


    As for the ability to sail to windward in gale-force winds, something I only do when forced to, I think the JR is very good at this.


    Hmm, interesting. From an aspect ratio perspective this makes sense - with the higher yard angle sail having superior lift, and thereby windward performance (for the same sail area), and this relative superiority increasing progressively as both sails are reefed. 

    Last modified: 03 Jan 2022 20:55 | Anonymous member
  • 01 Jan 2022 21:43
    Reply # 12230898 on 12212428
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Suggestion from Marcus N (Wharram wingsail) for storm sail

    Thanks Marcus. I did think about a wingsail, but trying to find something which would just hoist straight of the the bag (the sail catcher). I am not very keen on zips at the best of times - setting this up in difficult conditions would be my worry. Also it needs two halyards.

    The idea of encapsulating the mast is a good one. I wondered also about a tall narrow triangular Ljungström type of sail, both halves sheeted back to the end of the boom, which might be a bit easier to deploy out of the catcher. Still not quite as simple and fool-proof as you'ld want in rough conditions. 

    Last modified: 02 Jan 2022 00:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 01 Jan 2022 13:09
    Reply # 12230029 on 12212428
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Poppy’s SJR on top of the BR

    Yesterday Slieve sent me the complete sailplan of Poppy with the SJR. Since the Bermudan rig was not on it, I imported the drawing into my QCAD program and traced the SJR and its mast. Then I could superimpose  the SJR on the original sailplan of the Longbow with its Bermudan rig.
    This makes it easier to compare the rigs.


  • 31 Dec 2021 20:57
    Reply # 12228733 on 12212428

    About using a separate heavy weather sail. 

    Maybe a smaller version of the wharram wing sail would be quite easy to set up in a flash? A yard, a zipper, a halyard and a sheet...


  • 31 Dec 2021 19:26
    Reply # 12228603 on 12212428
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David D: Isn't there a point at which it isn't productive to be trying to sail to windward?

    Yes, I think that's correct. I agree with all your points.  Its not something we would choose to do (going to windward in a gale) but for the purpose of discussion, clawing off a lee shore mght be a case, if one is unlucky or imprudent enough to be caught in that situation.

    Arne: your experience with deep reefing is perfectly opposite of mine. I find that my sails stand better and better the more I reef, at least down to two panels.

    I wondered if that would be the case. My statement is based only on my little trailer boat with the Amiina Mk2 rig, which is rather over-canvassed and develops a lot of weather helm, when heeled over - and based on the only one time when I tried to go to windward in a strong wind. There was also an adverse tide running. I could probably have struggled on if I had been in danger, but I gave up because the boat really wasn't making much progress and there seemed no point. I don't know if it was the boat or if it was me. I am hoping someone else with a low yard-angle rig will chime in. Perhaps the high yard-angle rig has an advantage here.

    (No attempt at matching scale)

    Given the need (as I see it) to cloth the naked mast when heavily reefed, I wonder if it is worth taking this to an even greater extent by making a storm sail with high aspect ratio, a yard angle of 90 degrees and giving the sail zero balance. A kind of gunter rig with a couple of battens? The top of the yard would be a bit lower than the mast head, and the yard hoist point could be at the very top.

    For a dedicated heavy weather/strorm sail with windward ability, would something like this work?

    Happy New Year

    Last modified: 31 Dec 2021 19:49 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 31 Dec 2021 16:03
    Reply # 12228082 on 12212428
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Imagine the Longbow with a longer keel

    Now I’ve been a naughty boy and fitted a Westerly Longbow with one of my standard sails, with AR = 1.95 this time. I couldn’t find a copy of a complete sailplan of Poppy, only the sail alone.

    But let’s disregard the rig for now. Frankly, I think that the lines of the Longbow are great, and a good compromise between the light and the heavy designs. After my experience with my Johanna, I just wonder, what if the Longbow had been given the sort of keel which was used by Hallberg Rassy in the eighties. Such a big-area, low-AR fin-keel would stand up better to nasty head-seas (indicated on the sketch bellow). The steering would still be nimble since the rudder works in free water, away from the keel. In addition, such a keel would be a steadier ‘foot’ to stand on (with legs added).

    While I am at it: Add a Hallberg Rassy-style windscreen with laminated glass, and the sprayhood on top of that. These should be standard-equipment on any coastal cruiser.


  • 31 Dec 2021 12:56
    Reply # 12227790 on 12212428

    Isn't there a point at which it isn't productive to be trying to sail to windward?

    Because you need a sail with sufficient power to drive to windward into big waves, but at the same time, small enough not cause the boat to heel too much?

    Isn't that why MING MING deploys a drogue to reduce leeway while waiting out a storm?

    Because trying to sail to windward may put too much strain on the boat and crew.

    Unless you are off a leeshore and have no choice.

    I suppose maybe that's where Arnes reefed sail offers a better sail shape with a long cambered luff relative to the remaining sail area because of the high angle yard than the shorter luff on offer from a reefed SJR?

    I suppose your success to windward is very dependent on your hull shape as well as your storm sail area.

    Last modified: 31 Dec 2021 12:58 | Anonymous member
  • 31 Dec 2021 11:40
    Reply # 12227491 on 12212428

    What about a Nicholson 32  -  any better

    I was on a Nicholson 32 in gale conditions off the West coast of Ireland on this very day about 25 years ago. Despite horrendous sea-sickness I do remember the boat being pretty comfortable and confidence-inspiring. I'm sure it would sail to windward in any conditions. Are there any junk rig versions out there?

  • 31 Dec 2021 10:49
    Reply # 12227324 on 12212428
    Anonymous member (Administrator)


    your experience with deep reefing is perfectly opposite of mine. I find that my sails stand better and better the more I reef, at least down to two panels. The 3-panel top section on Ingeborg has proved to perform very well in F6 plus gusts (inshore), and with no flapping or flogging anywhere. Even the reefed bundle behaves. This, I think, has much to do with me making my sails with seven smaller instead of five bigger panels. My infamous write-up from 2018 describes Ingeborg’s handling under two, three and four panels.

    As for the ability to sail to windward in gale-force winds, something I only do when forced to, I think the JR is very good at this. The limiting factor is the boat. Generally, big is beautiful in this respect, but if one has to choose a vessel between two and four tons, then what? To me, the now-out-of-fashion heavy, long keel is the winner.
    My three-ton fin-keeled Johanna, had an easily driven hull, low superstructure and high ballast ratio. On flat, protected waters, she coped well. However, when facing the steep chop of long fjords, she struggled badly. Each time she was stopped, the keel stalled, and it took time to get started again.
    My present Ingeborg is less prone to being stopped in the first place, and when she does, she starts up again right away without losing much ground.

    I can Imagine that the SCOD is marvellous in such conditions (although wet).
    Trim lines, plenty of ballast and a big keel area is a good combination for such conditions. What about a Nicholson 32  -  any better?

    Cheers, and Happy New Year(s),

    Last modified: 31 Dec 2021 11:03 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 30 Dec 2021 23:24
    Reply # 12226488 on 12212428
    Anonymous member (Administrator)


    From Amiina we've learned that large sail area does not necessarily result in a faster or better boat, regardless of handicap if you have to reduce area to keep the boat sailing. 

    I have found that too. While I am a fan of big sail area in light conditions, the argument that it can easily be reefed does seem to have its limitations. My SJR works beautifully with one reef. Not so well with two, and beyond that, windward work starts to become progressively poor. With just one panel up, or perhaps two - probably hopeless to windward.

    With Serendipity (which, being a trailer boat, has to be rigged from scratch each time) I have learned and found ways to clip and unclip sheeting spans and parrel-downhaul spans, and I'm using a two-part sheeting system. It might be possible that a dedicated three-panel storm sail, residing in and deployable from a sail catcher, could be made to share the boom and the top spans of a working rig,  But as you say, it is easy to theorise.

    The question for me at the moment is: what would the ideal size and shape (and type) of sail best suited to heavy weather conditions, for, say, a 30-footer -  and with the capability to claw off a lee shore. For a start, a good part of the mast needs to be utilised I would imagine, as a bare mast is uselss to windward and too much of a drag. Also the sail needs to be big and powewrful enough to overcome the drag of the vessel itself, especially if it has high freeboard. When conditions are such that the boat can no longer stand up to such a sail, then I supppose that's the limit on what it can weather. I guess such a sail would need to be designed with the particular boat in  mind, but I am keen to know if there are any established principles.

    Any one got any thoughts?

    Last modified: 31 Dec 2021 08:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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