Sailing into wind advice please

<< First  < Prev   1   2   Next >  Last >> 
  • 06 Jun 2022 12:14
    Reply # 12807055 on 12805650

    Thanks Roy & Graeme again.

    Looking at your plot it looks like you are achieving around 70 degrees, which is about 10 degrees better than I can get. I will try adjusting the traveler's again this week more scientifically to see if I can get better windward speed. I too tack slowly to keep the speed up and have found if I move the mizzen car all the way to windward this will tack without much use of the rudder. This could be excessive weather helm? One suggestion I had is to move the main sheet traveller all the way to windward, have you tried this? I note you say you leave them both midships.

    Funny enough I also have played around with the triple block and tried your latest sheet layout but found it twisted the block so have gone back to exiting in the centre.

  • 06 Jun 2022 11:37
    Reply # 12807042 on 12805650

    Two other factors which might affect tacking performance have come to mind.

    When delivering the boat to the Clyde last year, my co-skipper and I noticed that my three-bladed fixed prop would spin when sailing, unless the gearbox were locked in reverse.  From memory, when sailing at around 5 knots, locking the prop reduced GPS speed by about half a knot, which would, I think, deleteriously affect tacking angles.  I can't recall whether the prop was locked or not in the Lamlash episode.

    The other possible factor is tacking technique.  The F33 has a large, transom-hung rudder, to which I have added an end plate, making it more powerful.  In the first few tacks in the chart plotter track I initiated the tack by speedily throwing the wheel hard over, and eventually registered that the boat speed dropped off dramatically in the first half of the turn, with the rudder acting as a brake.  Later I steered more gradually in the first half of the turn, which kept more way on the boat, helping with the turn into the wind on the second half.  Unfortunately, on the Lamlash episode the wind strength and direction varied over time, so it is not possible to deduce whether this change of technique made the improvement I think it would.

  • 06 Jun 2022 07:53
    Reply # 12806947 on 12805650

    Graeme, one of the attractions of the Firth of Clyde is that tidal flows are generally modest, except where concentrated around headlands, etc.  My exit from Lamlash was from around 11am to noon on 29th May, which coincided with HW at Dover at 11.30 BST, giving the tidal flows around Arran at 0.1 or 0.2 knots.  The Tidal flow atlases don't give fine detail inside Lamlash harbour, but it is unlikely to be much greater, if at all.

    1 file
  • 06 Jun 2022 01:36
    Reply # 12806805 on 12805650
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I am sure Charlie will appreciate your feedback, Roy - hopefully there will be others just as helpful - and maybe some informed opinions about your new sheeting arrangement too.

    Regarding your chart plot of YingZhou's beat out of Lamlash - it was decent of you to provide that and it might provoke some further useful discussion. You omitted to tell us which way the tide was running, or whether it was slack at the time, can you please add that piece of information?

    Last modified: 06 Jun 2022 01:54 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 05 Jun 2022 16:24
    Reply # 12806471 on 12805650

    Thank you Graeme for outing me! ;^)

    I was thinking about replying earlier, but I'm not sure how helpful I can be.  Since buying the boat ten years ago I spent 5 or 6 years doing work I had not anticipated, then fighting the River Ribble from Preston, and the tides in the Irish Sea, so have not built up any great experience, or intuitive feel for sailing the boat.  Now she is in the Firth of Clyde I am starting that process.

    The boat is a Freedom 33, junk-rigged ketch, with shoal draught fixed keel, having flat cut sails with wooden battens, hinged by way of GRP sleeve-type hinges.  Originally the carbon fibre masts were both the same length, the different amounts of bury giving the main a higher peak than the mizzen.  Before my ownership the fore mast suffered a breakage at sea, and although the remnant was salvaged it could only be repaired a few feet shorter than original, and was swapped out for the intact mizzen, resulting in an appreciably lower mizzen peak, together with redesigned sails. 

    Initially I found she would be hard to tack from starboard- to port-tack, and would readily self-tack back at the slightest opportunity.  Now I have more sailing opportunities on the Clyde I have begun studying the rig, and feel I am starting to get to grips with it, although still to fully appreciate the complexities of its efficient use.

    A factor I have long puzzled about is how best to route the sheet line at the triple block that feeds the three spans up to the luff and back.  I have noticed a few times on other boats, that an arrangement that allows the three spans to pass each other freely on one tack, can result in crossed lines on the other tack, causing increased friction and impeding the free running of the sheet spans in and out.  Below are drawings of the arrangement I had in use until a few weeks ago, and the arrangement I have since changed it to.  The drawings lack the full 3D form in the actual rig, but you might be able to see that one is rather less self-interfering than the other.  Combined with the "twistless coiling" method I wrote about in a recent magazine, I feel a lot happier about tacking the boat.  This coiling method cured the horrible twisting that occured in the sheet spans when I used the standard, RYA-type coiling, where the rope is twisted at each loop to allow the rope coils to lie neatly and look "ship-shape".

    Also below is a photo of the screen of my chart plotter, showing the tracks of various trips I made in and out of Lamlash Harbour on the Isle of Arran.  Most were under motor, but my latest exit was under sail, which track should be obvious.  Leaving the mooring buoy there was a light wind coming directly down the North Channel, of 5 to 10 knots, light enough for me to fully raise both sails prior to casting off.  Although I had the engine running in case of unforeseens,  once the mooring strop was let go the bows fell away to starboard and the boat sailed away without the engine's assistance.  It soon became clear I could tack and make progress into the wind towards the exit.  Feeling very Jack Aubrey, I continued to sail at around 3 knots, tacking over the next hour or so until, near the exit, the wind seemed to veer to the south east, at which point I could lay a course of around 60 degrees, directly towards Ardrossan.  The apparent wind direction inside the bay may have been modified by wind shadowing and funnelling by the steep hills on Holy Island and Arran.  The varying angles in the tack tracks were dictated by slight variations of wind direction over time.  I have no greater knowledge of wind strengths, directions, lee/weather helm etc than can be gleaned from the tracks, sorry.

    Once clear of the exit, and on the 60 degree heading, I was passed by three yachts on a reciprocal course, say 240 degrees.  The SE-ish wind would have provided them something like a broad reach, at worst a beam reach.  Although the wind was rather light and sea state smooth, I wondered why all three were motoring.  Guess what rig they carried!

    As well as changing the running arrangements of the sheets, the other thing I have done recently is to set both sheet travellers amidships for windward sailing, so that no adjustment is required when going through the wind.  The traveller can be used to make a quick in or out sheet adjustment to the whole sail at once, without the sheet line needing to pay in or out through the sheet block system, as would be needed if playing the sheet at the cockpit end.  It could also be used when the sail needs to be tight amidships for beating, allowing sheet tension to be reduced by setting the traveller out to windward. I also use the traveller in harbour - a line with a snap shackle is used to clip onto the boom aft end, attaching it to a stanchion base, or similar, then with the traveller run out opposite, tightening the sheet will hold the bundle amidships against wind blown swaying.  My boat has no boom gallows which might otherwise perform this function.

    Old Sheet Layout

    New Sheet Layout

    Tacking Out of Lamlash

    Last modified: 05 Jun 2022 23:52 | Anonymous member
  • 05 Jun 2022 15:24
    Reply # 12806431 on 12805650

    Thanks Graeme, I think the photo is playing tricks but I see what you mean. This photo is of my old sails. I have had an email from Alan Boswell who designed my new ones and have a few more experiments to do. As a matter of interest how close to the wind can you sail?

    I will try and contact the owner of "Freelance of Restronguet" and see if they can give me any pointers.

  • 05 Jun 2022 12:31
    Reply # 12806328 on 12805650
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Since no-one else has replied, I'll make a comment, though my knowledge of the Freedom series is confined to having admired picures of them, and I don't claim expertise on two-masted junk rigs. Perhaps by posting a comment it will bring your post back to the top of the list and you might get another chance of attracting some  expert advice.

    I must say, something strikes me as slightly odd about this photo - although the boat is moving along, it almost looks as though the main sail is sheeted slightly to windward, and the mizeen sheeted almost fore and aft. Surely that is not so?  Photos may be deceiving.

    I am sure you have tried all the combinations, but I would have thought sheeting the main in moderately, and the mizzen perhaps a little tighter than moderate, would allow the two sails to pull without interfering too much with each other, and to achieve at least a reasonably respectable heading, relative to the wind. Maybe with the long shallow keel you can not expect the boat to be exceptionally close-winded, but I would have thought much much better than you seem to be getting.

    I thought of looking through the membership list to see who else has a Freedom ketch converted to junk. There are quite a few, including Freedom 33s, but I could find only one other Freedom 30 junk conversion and that is "Freelance of Restronguet". If no-one pops up on the forum with helpful advice then perhaps you should contact the owner of this boat and compare notes. Most members probably won't be following the forum so there is a good chance you will have to contact the owner by email. It's not the done thing to post peoples' names and contact details here, but as you are a member, you can go to the MEMBERS" AREA of this website, click on "Directories" and then "Members' Boats" and you will be able to enter the boat name and then you will be able to make contact with the owner of the boat.

    Another Freedom ketch which might be close to yours in design, is Ying Zhou which is a junk conversion and I have corresponded with her owner in the past - she's a Freedom 33 but the rig looks very similar, maybe worth having a conversation.

    I hope that helps.

    Last modified: 05 Jun 2022 13:29 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Jun 2022 13:39
    Message # 12805650

    I have a JR Freedom 30 ketch with hinged batten sails. Over the five years that I have owned her I've tried numerous experiments trying to sail into wind but can't get better than around 70 degrees and to get any decent speed 80-90 degrees is what I bank on, which is not really into wind! The sails appear to be balanced and she will easily do 6-7knts on a broad reach with little weather helm helped by putting the mizzen sail tack to leeward. If I put the mizzen track to windward this helps to go into wind but rapidly increases weather helm and if I put it all the way across to windward she will tack without the use of the rudder, which is very useful in light winds. The main track doesn't appear to make a lot of difference so I tend to leave it in the mid point. Any ideas on how to sail her into wind? What angles do other junk owners achieve please? I've attached a few photos to show the sails.

    3 files
<< First  < Prev   1   2   Next >  Last >> 
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software