Designing a new sail / rig. Help me if you can...thanks a million

  • 25 Apr 2023 22:05
    Reply # 13180535 on 13177451

    Hi Jan and Arne and Tony,

    thanks a million for the lot of information, you really got your neck into it..

    I have to figure out all the details..., to answer a few questions:

    1. Yes, I got an offer from Sebastian from the Tuchwerkstatt in 2022... cambered sail with pockets, material WeatherMax 80...for 2.400€ (the price will have increased by now...). Sorry, i haven´t got the money for that plus new battens etc.
    2. Thanks to your commend, I am happy now with the mast!
    3. With your information, i have to draw the sailplan now..., it´s take a bit of time..., to downsize the sailplan of "Ingeborg" is a fine idea.
    4. Last season, I tried to use only 6 of the 7 panel, which worked quite well, and yes, you´re right, to hoist the sail to the top, gave me a great visability, what I like very much.
    5. Yes for the new battens, you confirmed my "feeling" about thickness and diameter.
    6. The jib is especially for very light winds, which we regularly have at the baltic sea in the evenigs, the wind is just dying at about 6 to 8 o´clock. It looks weird, but it works (2,4 knots only with the jib), but maybe I don´t need it anymore with a new sail / rig.
    7. The sailcloth..., yes, 4 - 5 oz (US measurement) should be fine (that about the range of 170 - 220 gr. / m²). I found a sailcloth, which I consider (but you are the experts, feel free for a comment):   (is that the one...?, os as 5oz?). Or is Dacron too stiff, especially while reefing? The "problem" might be the buying and shipping to Germany (but I will contact them). One of my brothers lives in the US (also a sailor), that might solve the "problem" (and tax and everything). Maybe they just sell to official sailmakers..., we´ll see.
    8. I am going to replace the old 6 hp Evinrude outboard with an 15 hp Yamaha (it should work with the space, because it´s a 2 - stroke engine, which are not that big. I am really looking forward to that, because in my area, you have lots of big ferrys and container ships, who will not move a mm aside (see my clips on YouTube "Djunkay, I am no Sailor")

    Well, this is it for now, I have to work out a few aspect...., we´l keep in touch.

    Oh, there is something else, that comes to my mind..., in December, I will be in NZ (Littelton / Christchurch) for a few weeks, visiting my doughter (she studies in Hamburg, but fell in love with a KIWI...). Maybe, I can meet a few of you, folks..?

    See you


  • 25 Apr 2023 21:14
    Reply # 13180484 on 13177451

    Hi Frank,

    thanky for the infomation about the sailcloth...., but what are rudderplates. I anyway replaced the rudder shaft (it just was fallen apart, you never would have got to the mediterranian...) and made a new rudder from plywood (nearly the original size and form, designed from thick to slim ...

    Well, i´ve got lots of informations now...the sorting begins...



  • 24 Apr 2023 19:47
    Reply # 13178890 on 13177451
    If I remember right, we used Odyssey III for the original sail. A Member from Finland is quite happy with Swela Outguard. It can be for example ordered here:

    The CE of the actual sail is about 1514mm abaft the mast. As far as I know, there was no weather helm. Maybe this is helpful.

    Kay, did you considered adding endplates to the rudder? This is often recommended from several members for better windward performance. As it is a simple metal barn door rudder this would be quite easy to add.

    All the best


    Last modified: 24 Apr 2023 21:06 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Apr 2023 21:48
    Reply # 13177861 on 13177451
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jan’s suggested CE for the originally Gunter-rigged  W22 had me bring out the original master sail with AR = 1.90 and yard angle 70°.

    This is the master sail that the sail for my Ingeborg was taken from. The resulting sail now sits with the CE where Jan described it.
    To construct this sail, all one has to do first is to down-scale Ingeborg’s sail from B =4.90m to B = 4.10m. That should give a scale factor Sf = 4.1m : 4.9m = 0.83673.
    Here is Ingeborg’s sailplan:

     The resulting sail area of 24.6sqm should give a SA/Disp. = 19.7.


    PS: The forward batten pockets will have to be adjusted a bit to fit the shown mast position, with higher mast balance than on Ingeborg's sail.

    (full size photo on Arne's sketches, section 7, photo 19)

    Last modified: 24 Apr 2023 10:00 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Apr 2023 19:44
    Reply # 13177765 on 13177451

    I can't find my drawings but the CE of the original rig could be worked out from the dimensions of the original Gunter rig, I think it is slightly further aft, somewhere in line with the right hand cupboard in the galley or the "loc" of "pan locker" in the drawing Arne worked from.

    Mast Length 18' 3", Diameter 3"

    Gunter Arm Length 13' 6", Diameter 2" + 3", SS length 12'

    Boom Length 12' 7", Diameter 3" SS length 11' 3"

    Measurement from top of cabin to underside of Boom at the mast end = 18”

    Sail Dimensions

    Mainsail Foot 11' 6”, Luff 22' 0”, Leech 24' 4” - 126.5

    Genoa Foot 9' 4”, Luff 18' 2”, Leech 16' 8”- 84.6

    Storm Jib Foot 6' 10”, Luff 12' 6”, Leech 9' 10”- 42.5

    Working Jib Foot 8' 0”, Luff 15' 0”, Leech 12' 6” - 60.0

  • 23 Apr 2023 19:08
    Reply # 13177734 on 13177451

    In my humble opinion, as an owner of a Westerly 22, I think the sail area is too large. The original sail area of the Gunter rigged W22s was 21 sq m, I don't think the original rig was efficient so a junk sail only slightly larger would suffice and be easier to handle. 

    Also, from my experience changing to a junk main with a medium jib which is perfectly balanced, I reckon the centre of effort is slightly too far forward on Arne's drawing. I will try to dig out the dimensions of my current rig and Arne can analyse them, give me a couple of days.

    An important aspect of the whole hull/rig combination on the W22 is that you have to get the boat healing just right when going upwind or the bilge keels do not function. This can be achieved by having a smaller well behaved sail higher up, rather than a larger sail lower down. That tall mast could be very useful to hoist the sail to get this healing moment and have great visibility under the sail. 

    I would do anything to avoid needing that jib, it seems totally unnecessary and against the whole idea of converting the boat to an unstayed mast and single junk main. 

    I won't interfere with Arne's advice on the cambered panel sail other than to say that if that were my boat and my sewing machine I would be making a Vincent Reddish rig, flat sewn with fan-induced camber. I think it would look great on a Westerly 22 and perform excellently. A Westerly 22 is never going to have amazing windward performance whatever one does with the rig. 

    I was very pleased with the real Dacron sailcloth seconds (175g) that I got from a supplier in Germany: Extremtextil Unfortunately they only have black in stock but keep an eye on them. (edit; black or white in first quality, they send samples)

    And just in case anyone thinks I don't like Arne's sails I have just finished making Arne's barrel cambered Halibut Special dinghy rig, made from hot air balloon fabric (65g) from the same supplier. Great design Arne, I like it, I hope my sewing does it justice. 

    Last modified: 23 Apr 2023 19:35 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Apr 2023 13:00
    Reply # 13177540 on 13177451
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Here, I have simply taken an existing rig and downscaled it.
    If you find you can use it, all you have to do is to take all the dimensions on that sail for Ketil Greve’s Kelt 8.50 and downscale it so the battens shrink from B= 4.90m to B = 4.20m.
    That should give a scale factor of Sf = 4.20 : 4.90 = 0.85714.
    Here is the original sail plan:

    I have chosen this sailplan to let me move the sail and its CE far enough forward to do away with the jib. The sail area should be ample without the jib, with a SA/ Disp = 20.8.

    Good luck,

    (full size photo on Arne's sketches, section 7, photo 18)

    Last modified: 23 Apr 2023 17:16 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Apr 2023 10:13
    Reply # 13177465 on 13177451
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Hello Kay,

    interesting project you have there!

    A bit about dimensions first:

    The mast, at 50kg, is maybe on the heavy side, but I don’t think it is a showstopper. After several boats and masts, I now try to keep the masts from weighing more than 3%, or even 2.5% of the boat. In your case I found it to be about 3.5% of the boat. I don’t think there is a hurry to replace this. On my first junk (Albin Viggen Malena), my ‘lightest’ mast (wooden) was about 70kg on the 1400kg vessel. The weight surely could be felt, but the boat nevertheless performed well enough. I suggest you look for a lighter mast of around 120mm diameter, but in the meantime rig the boat with the present mast.

    The battens sounds to be oversize. I guess I would look for Ø30 x 2mm or Ø35 x 1.5mm, with the boom and top sheeted batten (no. 2 from top) maybe at Ø35 x 2mm or Ø30 x 3mm.

    The sailcloth should not be too heavy, I would say that 150 – 230g/sqm is plenty. Too heavy cloth will not set so well in light winds. The cloth certainly needs not be ‘real’ sailcloth, but should resist UV radiation and rain.

    I see there is a jib there. Is that to get more sail power, or does the rig give weather helm problems without the jib?


    PS: I will have a closer look at the Westerly 22 design and see if I can fit a JR to that existing mast.

    A starter:

    Last modified: 26 Apr 2023 07:54 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Apr 2023 09:36
    Reply # 13177452 on 13177451

    Hi Kay-Albert

    I understand you want to make the sail yourself, which is admirable, but have you considered contacting Sebastian at the Tuchwerkstatt in Greifswald?

  • 23 Apr 2023 09:15
    Message # 13177451

    I decided to go on with my Westerly 22, already jung rigged (so I am not going to sell it). I hope it´s a wise decision... Anyway, I need a new sail / rig (the old one is just too heavy at the top, the sail is not designed in an aerodynamic way, see my profile "Westerly 22 Djunkay", and so on). The mast is increadibly strong (about 9m heith, diameter 17 cm on deck - 9 cm on the top, weight about 50 kg) as the boat ist too.

    What I have got:

    1. Enough ideas and creativity to design the sail / rig, and  the handcraft skills to do the job / the nessecary space
    2. An old, but very solid Singer sewing mashine that should do the job of sewing
    3. The old sail, where I can take the measurements from (it was well designed with the help of a member of the JRA, but before I bought the boat...)
    4. Sketches for details of my ideas
    5. The forsail, which is another story (see the photo)..., but not for now.

    My imagination / ideas of the sail / rig:

    1. Cambered panels
    2. Sail / rig should work for the baltic sea / crossing to Ireland (from Germany) / mediterrainian Area / no ocean crossing needed
    3. Maybe 220 - 270 g / m² weight of sailcloth, but which one?
    4. Top battern: Aluminium Diameter 5-6 cm / 2mm thick (the present one is Diameter 8 cm / 3 mm thick, increadibly heavy...)
    5. Lower batterns: Aluminium Diameter 3 cm / 2mm thick (the present ones are Diameter 4 cm / 3 mm thick (too heavy too)
    6. Lowest battern: Diameter 5 cm / 2 mm thick
    7. Panels (4 panels) are 4.3 m / 0.75 m (as the present sail)
    8. Triangles (3 panels) as the design provides them (as the present sail)
    9. The battern pockets (is this the right vocabulary?) should be sackholes (closed pockets) on the mast / front side. To strech / tight the sail, htere should be prolonged battern ends at the aft side (yes, I have sketches made).
    What I really need is:
    1. The measurements etc. for the design of the cambered panels and the triangles (no, I have no software to design and print out the shape of the different curved pieces..., nor a formular for designing them (for doing it the old way of drawing...)).
    2. Someone to correct me, when my ideas get to stupid / unrealistic / not manageble / not useful for improving sailing...!!
    3. Ideas for the right sailcloth: I heard about WeatherMax 80 or WeatherMax 65, but the material is originally made for coverings / persennings, not for sails..?, I also heard about the material TOP - Gun 9 (no, not a movie...) as a sailcloth...? Are there any other ideas for a proper sailcloth (adresses for buying, maybe even german ones...?).
    4. Help for answering questions along the way of making the sail / rig

    Well, if there ist anyone out there, who is not afraid to help me..., you are more than welcome!!!

    See you?


    Contact: Kay - Albert Schult, Schmaler Lehmberg 19, 23568 Lübeck / Germany, phone: 0491628146154  E - Mail:

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