Morgan 382 conversion help

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  • 14 Apr 2014 00:41
    Reply # 1537068 on 1535021
    Deleted user
    The Campbells' Tyler 35 was called Papilio Ruga or similar. (See JRA Newsletter 8, December 1983).

    I concur with Graham. Not sailed a schooner with equal sail areas, but our Sunbird 32 was great downwind with a foresail smaller than the main. Sometimes we'd run with more sail at the front than on the main: the foresail kept pulling because of its then greater height. In rolly conditions we'd haul the foresail in tight: it eased the motion a lot.
    Last modified: 14 Apr 2014 00:50 | Deleted user
  • 14 Apr 2014 00:33
    Reply # 1537067 on 1535252
    David Tyler wrote:I favour two equal size sails, where practicable, for convenience when sailmaking, carrying spare battens, and running wing and wing.

    I'd like to offer a very timid opinion here.  Timid because my experience has been almost entirely with a well-balanced single-masted rig (which I like very much).  I have also liked the idea of two equal-sized junk sails for a two-masted rig, first seen I believe on John and Laura Campbell's boat and later on Badger, but my research has led me to wonder about this.  A number of voyagers have mentioned the difficulty of getting the sails to set wing and wing (or wing and wong, as Annie so amusingly put it) when rolling along at sea (see Brazil and Beyond, by Annie Hill).  They also had difficulty in running with just the foresail set, developing weather helm.  Mike Ellison suggested this may have been due to the large mast and sail being right in the bows and depressing them, causing the boat to want to round up, particularly with boats that have fine bows.  More successful was to run with the mainsail squared off and the foresail sheeted in tight, often reefed.  The standard Hasler Mcleod schooner rig, with a large main and a small foresail may be more effective in this configuration, giving a larger sail area in the main for driving.  The mainmast is also further forward, which must help balance and the foresail in the bows both lighter and having less downward thrust.  I have sailed briefly on a schooner with this configuration and it seemed to work well.  The foremast, although short and carrying a small sail, was still very stout and this allows it to be used effectively as a storm sail.  The small area of the foresail in this configuration, particularly when reefed in gale-force conditions, seems to have less of a deleterious effect.  I should say, though, that my friend's boat, Si Hai, is a 28ft Roberts Spray.  The bows are so buoyant that an elephant could sit on the foredeck!
  • 11 Apr 2014 15:15
    Reply # 1535849 on 1535684
    Ben Bruce wrote:I would download a digital version of PJR to a laptop with windows 7. I am not familiar with "epub" is that the version I would download?
    The digital version has the same content as the paper version. EPUB makes a book look more like a book, on screen (as opposed to PDF, which looks more like sheets of paper on screen). I read them with iBooks on my Mac, and there must be an equivalent app in Win7.
  • 11 Apr 2014 05:49
    Reply # 1535698 on 1535684
    Ben Bruce wrote:I would download a digital version of PJR to a laptop with windows 7. I am not familiar with "epub" is that the version I would download?

    Ben, I would say that it depends on how big your screen is.  There are quite a lot of diagrams in PJR and a few tables that make it awkward to read on my netbook screen.  If you can happily read a Letter size page on your screen, then you'd find the digital version OK.  I don't use Windows, but as far as I know, 'epub' is the generic, one-size-fits-all, format.  Someone much more knowledgeable will answer that tomorrow, I expect :-)
  • 11 Apr 2014 05:29
    Reply # 1535690 on 1535685
    Ben Bruce wrote:I have noticed in old photos of Chinese junk rigs that many boats had larger mainsails and smaller fore and aft sails.....a total of three masts. Maybe this is better asked in another thread.....but is there a reason this has not prevailed in more modern rig design?

    The Chinese versions seem to be lower aspect ratio sail plans.....so perhaps this was a way to increase sail area. I am assuming there is nothing to be gained with more sails of smaller size or people would be using it.
    There are three sails on old engineless junks for manoeuvrability - the foresail is the 'bow thruster' and the mizzen is the 'air rudder', when working into a tight spot. The much bigger mainsail provided most of the drive.

    For speed, power and efficiency, the fewer the number of sails the better. One sail until it's as big as you can manage (500 sq ft is sensible, 600 sq ft is getting to be too much like hard work). Then two sails until they too are getting to be too big to manage, at a total of say 1000 sq ft. Then three sails.

    This puts the crossover points at about 30 -32 ft for one/two masts, 40 - 42 ft for two/three masts.
    Last modified: 11 Apr 2014 05:29 | Anonymous member
  • 11 Apr 2014 04:50
    Reply # 1535685 on 1535021
    Deleted user
    I have noticed in old photos of Chinese junk rigs that many boats had larger mainsails and smaller fore and aft sails.....a total of three masts. Maybe this is better asked in another thread.....but is there a reason this has not prevailed in more modern rig design?

    The Chinese versions seem to be lower aspect ratio sail plans.....so perhaps this was a way to increase sail area. I am assuming there is nothing to be gained with more sails of smaller size or people would be using it.
  • 11 Apr 2014 04:41
    Reply # 1535684 on 1535021
    Deleted user
    I would download a digital version of PJR to a laptop with windows 7. I am not familiar with "epub" is that the version I would download?
  • 11 Apr 2014 04:32
    Reply # 1535680 on 1535021
    Deleted user
    Great input everyone......what a great community! I think I need to just get the major boat work done and get the boat back in the water for now. It seems this design process and build of the rig and sails will have to be in stages. But I can live aboard with no rig and reduce my cost of living. That way the design will not be rushed, I can work out the details and get it right the first time.

    Do you recommend a hardbound copy of PJR or is the digital version ok?
  • 11 Apr 2014 03:31
    Reply # 1535666 on 1535021
    All good advice, Ben, particularly reading Arne's various documents.  It's also well worth getting hold of a copy of PJR - you'll find yourself going back to it time and again, long after you've rigged the boat and are sailing her.

    As to balance: junk rig seems to be pretty forgiving.  I've seen quite a few sails that seem to have more or less in front of the mast than on the drawings and they all seem to work pretty well.  The subtlety of the sheeting and the ease of reefing may be the reasons why one rarely hears people complaining that their rig is unbalanced. 

    I'd also go straight into building the sails that you want and I don't think it's significantly more difficult to make a cambered sail than a flat one.

    Best of luck with your project. 
  • 10 Apr 2014 23:16
    Reply # 1535562 on 1535021
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Hi Ben

    Could I suggest you go to my folder, here, and check chapter 3 and 4 of the “The Cambered Panel Junk Rig”? These chapters both deal with sketching up a sloop, schooner and ketch (chapter 3), and about detail drawing of each junk sail, including calculating the round needed to get 6, 8 or 10% camber (chapter 4). Hopefully you find some of it useful.

    Actually, my experience is that the centre of pressure, CP, moves a bit forward in a cambered sail compared to in a flat sail; at least with the max camber point well forward (around 35% from the luff). For this reason I reduce the lead of my rigs a bit ( 2  - 5% of lwl)  compared to on a flat sail or the Bermuda rig’s CE.

     

    I agree with David that it is wasted effort to make a sail of cheapo, non-durable canvas.

    Cheers, Arne

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