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SibLim - finishing off the hull

  • 19 Aug 2016 15:56
    Reply # 4200651 on 4188986

    Annie,

    I can, in principal, write something for the newsletter.  How would it be relevant to junk rigs in particular?  It will get one eventually but I havent gotten close to that stage at this point.

    I would post some pictures here if I could figure out how.

  • 19 Aug 2016 09:56
    Reply # 4200291 on 4188986

    We used peel-ply on Befur. I think we failed to squeeze enough epoxy thru the peel ply and had quite a thick coating. I agonised about the overlaps and eventually decided to leave them in place to provide structural strength.

    When I then sanded, I took care not to reach the cloth, but just tried to reduce the "tiger-stripe" sags. (I am told you can get thixotropic additives to help with this.)

    Finally I used an epoxy sanding filler to smooth out the double-layer overlaps.

    There are pics of the two stages here (on the blog)

    Cladding

    Filling

    ... seems a long time ago.....(fitting out progresses slowly)

    Last modified: 19 Aug 2016 10:01 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Aug 2016 23:52
    Reply # 4199774 on 4188986
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie,
    actually I have used epoxy quite a bit, just not for hi-finish glassing. I am in the strong-but-scruffy-finish league. I mainly use the epoxy for gluing bits together, anything from dug-out mast halves to “welding” together a plywood puzzle to make a wind vane  -  or a mast step, or...

    I find that washing off coated bits with water and ammonia is very quick and effective at getting rid of the waxy surface, and get good gluing.

    Early on I built up an intense hate for the epoxy. The spluttering pumps never seemed to work properly (since it went some time between each time I used them)  -  and I always seemed to make mess of it, like a two-year old kid trying to combine some biscuits and a jar of blueberry jam...

    Nowadays I use digital scales. I pour the hardener first, then add on resin until I have six times as much. Missing with a gram or two with resin does less harm than missing with the same amount of hardener.

    Keep up the good work!

    Arne

     

    Last modified: 05 Sep 2016 21:44 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 Aug 2016 22:30
    Reply # 4199743 on 4188986
    Garth - your project sounds fascinating.  Can I persuade you to write it up for the magazine? 

    I'm interested in your comments about peel ply.  From reading around the subject, the feeling that I got was that it is really for structural glass rather than sheathing.  As you surmised, the glass on SibLim is purely to make a harder surface to protect the underlying (rather soft) okoume/gaboon ply.  I can imagine that it's perfect for fillets such as you described, particularly because it can be a real schlep to get those edges faired and smooth.

    BTW thanks for the comment about the extra cost of using peel ply.  I did rather wonder.  And you have to throw it away at the end - I loathe making more rubbish than I absolutely have to.

    Arne: you are quite right that you want plenty of epoxy on the job at the end.  However, the Gougeon Bros seem to get quite excited about the idea of the glass floating in epoxy, rather than adhering to the hull, so when you have finished laying it down, it should have a matt finish, which shows that it has wetted out, but is not totally saturated.  Then you put another couple of coats on top to get your epoxy build up.  Particularly at this time of the year, the epoxy throws off a 'blush' (more like a slime!) of amine, poetically referred to as 'amine bloom', which needs washing off with fresh water which has a little household ammonia in it, otherwise the epoxy won't stick.  If you get a fresh coat on within 24 hours (probably longer in the cool weather that we are presently experiencing), there's no need to sand between coats.

    I've done a lot of glassing in my time.  It's one job I feel thoroughly comfortable with.


  • 18 Aug 2016 09:30
    Reply # 4198651 on 4188986
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Just as thought.

    The reason for using peel ply is to remove resin that is not necessary for strength. However, the idea with sheathing a boat like this is mainly to add a moisture barriere, so some extra leftover resin cannot hurt, can it?

    Arne

  • 18 Aug 2016 01:10
    Reply # 4198132 on 4188986

    I don't know much about junk rigs but I have some experience with sheathing and peel ply.

    I think Annie's method of making butt joints in the sheathing will work just fine assuming the plywood takes all the structural loads and the glass is there primarily to protect the wood. 

    On my boat, I wanted the sheathing to be more structural with out week spots between the cloth panels.  What I did was lay out alternating panels athwartship.  This let me work in between the panels while glassing and also let me grind tapers in the edges, 2-3 inches.  Then I layed the remaining panels - overlapping the first ones.  Grinding them flat produced what is effectively a scarf joint in the glass.  This wasn't nearly as nasty a job as it sounds like or as I thought it would be.

    Peel ply is pretty easy to use but it is pricey if you plan to use a lot of it.  Nylon shower curtain works well but there is not really much cost advantage.  I have read that the Dacron (polyester) peel ply is better than the nylon as the nylon may leave a residue.

    Peel ply works well for reducing excess resin.  You still use the resin of course but its easier to remove.  Its also good if you want to bond to the surface without sanding.  I am mostly using it on my bulkhead to hull fillets.  After applying the fiberglass tape, rather heavy 18oz Biax, I lay the peel ply over it, and smooth with a squeegee and/or paper towel.  This ensures the tape is fully wet out, wont need any additional coating, and even produces tapered edges.  All this eliminates the need to sand the fillets which is a huge time saver.

    I generally let the epoxy fillets set up before I glass them. I bought a round nosed burr to quickly sand the fillets that chucks in my hand drill.  The burrs are intended for wood carving.  This is currently my favorite tool.  https://kutzall.com/collections/ball-nose    (fine grit works for me)


  • 17 Aug 2016 16:06
    Reply # 4197169 on 4191185
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    OK,
    so that principally makes a butt joint with no fibre overlap. But then, if the glass is mainly there for making a thicker water membrane, a butt joint is just as good.

    Arne

    That's right, Arne. The glass stabilises and reinforces a thick resin coat, for waterproofing and impact resistance. Peel ply is used as an aid to removing excess resin where the best strength to weight ratio is aimed for in an all-FRP construction, but this is not quite what's required when sheathing a plywood hull. 

    I would compare it  to putting a gel coat onto a FRP boat, where even if the substrate is strong and light, a resin-rich external surface is desirable.

    Last modified: 17 Aug 2016 16:17 | Anonymous member
  • 15 Aug 2016 21:50
    Reply # 4192835 on 4188986
    'Everyone' suggests that I should use the Peel ply technique, but I haven't for several reasons.  The first is that I've never used it and so need to learn a new technique, which I'd rather not do.  (Thus far, each time I learn a new skill, eg scarphing plywood, just as I'm starting to get the hang of it, I finish the job!)  The second is that I'm not sure how it would help with the issue of smoothing out the joins in the glass - I guess you'd peel off and then scrape/plane them smooth.  Most importantly, however, is that I follow my other 'bible' The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, as closely as possible and they strongly emphasise using minimal amounts of epoxy to glue down the cloth.  I would be concerned (a new technique, remember!) that I might end up with too much epoxy, which effectively floats the cloth.  In theory, great efforts with squeegees would obviate that, but I'd then end up with lots of excess epoxy to try to use up, or, more likely, to dispose of and I'd still be worried that I had an uneven coating.  So I stick with the method that I know, and trust that it will all be OK. 

    I'd like to try the peel ply technique sometime.  Maybe I will build a new dinghy one day, and I'll use it then.  :-)




  • 15 Aug 2016 21:10
    Reply # 4192752 on 4191303
    Anonymous
    David Robinson wrote:I still have nightmares! I might add that we never had a joint that failed.  For those aeroplane builders among you I speak of the Long Eze generation of Rutan designs 
    I once gave a bi-ennial flight review to a private-pilot/owner/builder of a Long Eze--very cool airplane.  However--re:  nightmares--with no access to the flight controls in that tandem backseat, trust (necessarily) and vigilance (obviously) were unusually high!
  • 15 Aug 2016 09:06
    Reply # 4191303 on 4188986

    A hundred years ago when I was building Burt Rutan aeroplanes and we were doing overlap joints with multiple tapes, we used what Burt called 'peel ply' which was just strips of I think terelene (or something similar) curtain lining, very thin and which absorbed epoxy well to overlay the joints.  Having squeeged out the excess epox from the two or three or more tapes (say a series of five, four and three inch wide tapes used in sequence, widest nearest the join) cut from woven cloth on the bias so that they would lay down in difficult corners) we would apply the peelply over the joint, wet it out, squeege hard, leave an unepoxied end showing and the next day when it had gone off we just stripped it off like a band-aid.  We got a nice smooth elided joint with very little excess epoxy.  This made a very strong and light joint. Always a bonus in aircraft. Nowadays I guess boatbuilders use commercial tapes with woven edges. Perhaps this might make it more difficult to get a smooth join  However as we cut ours from the original bolt of cloth as above and then used the cling film trick to prep. the tape we could apply them in the most awkward corners, sometimes inverted and using a mirror - I still have nightmares! I might add that we never had a joint that failed.  For those aeroplane builders among you I speak of the Long Eze generation of Rutan designs and not the Spaceship One! David 

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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