Auxiliary Sails

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  • 12 Jan 2011 23:33
    Reply # 494617 on 492576

    Hi Kurt

     

    The Kiwi prop is a bit off theme, but a short quick bulletin is -

    I’m not home and dry as it would appear I did not get the gearbox I was promised. I’m not sure, but it appears that with the Kiwi prop the gear ratios are important in both forward and reverse. I was at London Boat Show today (see note below) and my new engine supplier admits that they may have to change the box. I will speak to the Kiwi agent tomorrow. I haven’t sailed with the prop yet, so watch this space. I don’t see how a feathering prop could spin a generator. Tell me more. It sounds complicated so would not be welcome on my boat.

     

    I am a single mast man on junk boats so have no personal experience but I understand that the aft sail is used to drive the boat down wind and fore sail to reduce rolling. The aft sail should/ may give a straighter run but I can’t say. Poppy is not short of downwind performance, and on a broad reach will sail heeling to windward as the total thrust vector is so far forward with respect to the rig.

     

    Similarly in very light airs, adequate fore and aft sail area AND camber should give adequate performance. Personally I would have camber and forget auxiliary sails, but that’s me as I like a boat to perform to its best ability. I have sailed on too many junk boats that have not sailed up to their hull’s potential and which encourage the opinion that the junk rig is inferior.

     

    Cheers,  Slieve.

     

    Note– The Boat Show was disappointing to say the least with very few sailing boats on display. There was a C-class cat with hard wing sail which was interesting as it has an adjustable slot at the hinge which I have already suggested to some JRA members, and which apparently makes a BIG difference to performance.

    Last modified: 12 Jan 2011 23:33 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Jan 2011 19:26
    Reply # 494408 on 493769
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Stavanger, Tuesday

                ...and then there is the propeller...

    Excellent point. 

    (A Kiwi prop has been on our 'afford' list, since we do need a new prop. In our case, the propeller needs to spin the motors for regenerating electricity, but the company tells me there's a way to lock and unlock the blades to do this - not guaranteed, so our risk.)

    (Hmm... hey, Slieve - care to do a little test for me?)

    In a way, a boat with a regenerating/solar/wind -recharged electric drive (like ours) can use its propeller as an auxiliary sail. The energy all comes from the same place. That's another story, but Arne, your comment highlights the fact that the whole system contributes to any one goal.

    Kurt
    Last modified: 12 Jan 2011 19:26 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Jan 2011 19:15
    Reply # 494399 on 493628
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    P.S. Sorry if this is not the answer you were looking for.

    Not looking for any particular answer. So far, opinion seems to be against the need for auxiliary sails altogether.

    Still, there are two situations I have in mind:

    - Downwind, a way to 'twin' the (reefed) foresail for balanced area right up forward. (Other schooner people haven't found it necessary.) I've sketched a sail that doesn't fly from the masthead but from points distributed lower, designed to work with the junk foresail.

    - Light air reaching and running. Really light air. I think there's potential, but again, people are living without it.

    Cheers,
    Kurt


  • 11 Jan 2011 22:36
    Reply # 493769 on 492576
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Tuesday

                ...and then there is the propeller...

    If someone tells me they want to improve their boat’s performance, I guess the first question I would ask would be if their boat’s propeller is of the fixed or the folding/feathering type. I would rather improve the propeller than forking out big money on a big sheet of nylon (spinnaker, gennaker...).

    Arne

    PS: I’m looking forward to hearing Slieve’s reports later this year, now that he has fitted a Kiwi prop to his "Poppy".

    Last modified: 11 Jan 2011 22:36 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Jan 2011 20:16
    Reply # 493628 on 492576

    I am a bit bemused as to why anyone would want to fly auxiliary sails on a well rigged junk boat. On Poppy I cannot envisage ever needing anything more than my single cambered rig. My split junk has spinnaker performance off the wind and Bermudan performance up wind, so I can’t see why I would ever use another sail. I can only assume you are talking about under canvassed boats and possibly flat sails which may need help, but as I can get 2 kts in any direction in 4 kts of true wind I see little need for such complication.

    If I was planning to cross the pond I might think about carrying a kite surfers kite in case my mast fell down, but otherwise, ?

    Cheers,

    Slieve

    P.S. Sorry if this is not the answer you were looking for.

  • 11 Jan 2011 07:11
    Reply # 493313 on 493292
    Paul Thompson wrote:
    So to me putting up auxiliary sail is just to much trouble and it really defeats one of the major attractions of the rig.
    True enough, and thanks.
    Kurt
  • 11 Jan 2011 06:52
    Reply # 493305 on 493064
    David Tyler wrote:Back in about 1980, you could buy a section of government-surplus parachute for next-to-nothing, cut out a suitable shape for a drifter, tape the edges, and hoist it up the mast. I did that - and used it for the purpose of putting a permanent bend in my mast. A sail flying from a masthead halyard places far greater demands on the mast than does the junk rig, and you are reluctant to take the sail down when you should because a) you're going so well, and b) it's got hard to take the sail down because the wind's piped up.
    Thanks for that. The bend our drifter set into the foremast, eventually straightened out. Then I cut 9' off the top. (For a little while, we had another reason - c) the foreboom (Bermudan) was broken and getting repaired inside the boat, so the drifter was about all we could put up there.)
  • 11 Jan 2011 06:19
    Reply # 493292 on 492576
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote: Does anyone have experience and wisdom to share, having used auxiliary sails on their junk-rigged boat? Of any kind, for any purpose...

    We used a smallish 'drifter' on the foremast of our old cat schooner rig but haven't used any extra sails with the junk rig. What use have they been to anybody?

    (I'd like just as much to be talked out of considering them, as have to make any.)

    Regards,
    Kurt

    I'm a somewhat lazy sailor and one of the great attractions of the junk rig for me has been that the sails that are attached to the mast(s) are all the sail that you have. With the rig being so easy to control and reef, there really is little excuse for not putting enough sail area into the rig to begin with (heavy displacement boats excepted. There it can be a real challenge to get enough sail area).

    So to me putting up auxiliary sail is just to much trouble and it really defeats one of the major attractions of the rig. La Chica used to be rigged as a gaff ketch with a bermuda mizzen. I had all the sails your heart could ever have desired and in light conditions I could set a top sail, mizzen staysail, a mule, two water sails and a 150% ghoster (and a cruising chute if the wind was from the right direction), setting around a 1000 SqFt in all. Not bad for a 32ft boat.

    In practice, this was done a couple of times and then I seldom bothered as it was just to much work and you were sort of in a constant state of terror. Fearful lest a gust suddenly appear from nowhere an knock you flat.

    However it did lead to one really memorable occasion when we won the only around buoys regatta  that I have ever entered (and most likely ever will) and that was the 1997 Dog Days Regatta in Pamilico Sound, North Carolina, USA. There was essentaily no wind, so it was just a drifting match and all that sail manage to find what breeze could be found. We confounded everyone includeing our selves :-)

    But all the above does lead me to a point and that is with a heavy boat you need all the power you can extract from the sail that you can fit onto the boat. Hence La Chica will be sporting a softwing of the same type that David Tyler has on Tystie. It's not going to turn La Chica into a sparkling performer. She's to heavy for that but I believe that we will get all of the performance that the hull is capable of delivering and hopefully we will be able deliver a few surprises.

    That said, La Chica is essentially a 4.5 to 5 kt pasagemaker. Offshore we consistantly do runs of 100 to 120 miles over 24 hours. It does not really seam to matter what the conditions are.
  • 11 Jan 2011 00:45
    Reply # 493064 on 492576
    Back in about 1980, you could buy a section of government-surplus parachute for next-to-nothing, cut out a suitable shape for a drifter, tape the edges, and hoist it up the mast. I did that - and used it for the purpose of putting a permanent bend in my mast. A sail flying from a masthead halyard places far greater demands on the mast than does the junk rig, and you are reluctant to take the sail down when you should because a) you're going so well, and b) it's got hard to take the sail down because the wind's piped up.
  • 10 Jan 2011 11:09
    Message # 492576
    Does anyone have experience and wisdom to share, having used auxiliary sails on their junk-rigged boat? Of any kind, for any purpose...

    We used a smallish 'drifter' on the foremast of our old cat schooner rig but haven't used any extra sails with the junk rig. What use have they been to anybody?

    (I'd like just as much to be talked out of considering them, as have to make any.)

    Regards,
    Kurt
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