Pacific Seacraft Flicka 20 junk conversion?

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  • 06 Apr 2023 22:21
    Reply # 13159560 on 13078361

    Thank you Annie. Sorry for late response. Been away from boat involved with other project. I am definitely looking into wind vane options. Thanks for the words of encouragement. 

  • 16 Feb 2023 01:16
    Reply # 13099474 on 13078361
    I think she will be a great boat  for offshore work.  You will probably want to fit a wind-vane self-steering (I'd go for a trim-tab on the rudder), in which case you want to make sure the mizzen doesn't interfere with the wind vane.
    Last modified: 16 Feb 2023 01:26 | Anonymous member
  • 04 Feb 2023 16:12
    Reply # 13084891 on 13078361

    I am away from my computer for a day and so much happens!

    Gentlemen, thank you for the enlightening conversation. I am learning a lot about my new boat.

    I am very excited to see Arne's drawings! Thank you Arne. I tried to follow method outlined in your files but I struggled a bit with the choice of rig's AR/boom/mast size. Your drawings make it so much more simple.

    I live near Cape Canaveral in Florida. I intend to use boat in Florida Keys and I plan on cruising to Bahamas. Most of the time I will sail alone so apart from safety, reliability and ease of use of the rig is the most important to me. Also I like idea of being self reliant and being able to fix your boat yourself no matter where you take her. In building spars and the rig I would employ safety factors used for blue water boats. It is not far but you still have to sail open ocean to cross to Bahamas and there is Gulf Stream.

    If Yawl rig in your opinion is the best choice and complies with my objectives I would go ahead with Arne's suggestion.

    Thanks Arne and Graeme for your input

    Kristof

    BTW my Flicka is a 1979 fiberglass production boat. I believe the attachment is the most relevant drawing of my boat 


    1 file
  • 04 Feb 2023 03:20
    Reply # 13084534 on 13078361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Possibly the article Arne is referring to is the one on sailing performance.

    Last modified: 04 Feb 2023 03:48 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Feb 2023 21:40
    Reply # 13084241 on 13078361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Yawl

    After having read the lovely article about the Flicka ( "History of the Flicka" article  Edit: or this one) which Graeme pointed at, it appears clear to me that she needs to have her sail area (position of CE) as movable as possible: Flicka clearly needs to be pushed, but when doing so, she develops weather helm. The best for that design is if we somehow can make her sail on her ear, but still with a moderate rudder angle.

    I think the shown yawl is the best way of achieving that. This time I have moved the main mast 150mm forward. Then I have drawn a new junk sail with a 60° yard. On the sailplan, the mainsail is set with only 22% mast balance, but this can be increased to almost 26%.

    This should ensure some lee helm until the mizzen is being sheeted in. As the wind picks up and weather helm increases, the mizzen sheet is eased to reduce the need for rudder input.

    Someting like that...

    Arne

    PS: As always, I would also recommend adding endplates on the rudder to speed up tacking.

    (Hi-res diagram on Arne's sketches, section 7, photo 12)

    Last modified: 04 Feb 2023 08:04 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Feb 2023 10:01
    Reply # 13083385 on 13078361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    To be or not to be 15 or 5°...

    Sorry about that, Graeme.
    Actually, I have written 15° halyard angle on both drawings, but when ‘printing’ out in jpeg format, one digit was covered by the thick blue halyard line. Therefore, it should say 15° with the sail in that position.

    The sail has only been shown in this position, with CE1 close to the total CE of the Bermuda rig. Then I found (without actually moving the sail) that if the halyard angle was reduced from 15 to 5°, the sail’s new CE would move forward into the CE2 position. I only wrote it to indicate there is a bit room for adjustment  -  and to ensure myself that one could trim away any weather helm.

    BTW, if anyone wonders about the two CLR positions; CLR1 is with rudder on, and CLR2 is without rudder. The rudder is big on Flicka, giving plenty of control.

    One reason why Bingham gets the balance right, is that he has given the keel quite some drag (downslope towards the rudder).

    My experience with long-keeled boats has taught me that the lead must be generous, some 15-17% of the waterline if one wants a near neutral helm.

    Arne

    PS: The Bermudan rig sailplan was the one from Sailboat Data.


    Last modified: 03 Feb 2023 10:03 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Feb 2023 03:37
    Reply # 13083168 on 13078361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Here is yet another sail plan, gaff cutter, showing CE a little bit aft of the CE in the SailboatData website bermudan version)

    I suppose if nothing else, it demonstrates that different types of rig call for different amounts of lead.

    It came from this source - maybe Arne knows what it is. [Is it a Scandinavian language? Or is that "Turkiye" language?]

    The same source, same cabin windows in this bermudan masthead sloop version. It has the same CE position (about at the mast) as the cutter/sloop in the Sailboat Data website but different style cabin windows from the Sailboat Data version.




    Also, just to complete the package, here is a junk sail plan, I am not sure of its provenance, or if it was ever made, which appears on the Sailrite website, but I don't think it is theirs - it too seems to have the CE somewhat aft of where it is on the the later bermudan version.



    Different shape windows from the SaiboatData version, and from the the above versions, though possibly the same internal layout. 



    The point being, there sure are a lot of different versions out there, not all with the CE in the same place.


    Kristof: The Pacific Seacraft version has a great write-up here. And a lovely video here. And some great articles here including this one (click on photo)

    which states: "...As she heels the moment of the sail plans centre of effort is moved outside the boat. When this occurs the Flicka develops weather helm quickly..." which rather vindicates Arne's suggested rig and placement - and also your choice of junk as your new rig (easily reefed in an instant so that angle of heel is always under control).

    It looks like you've got a great little project here, and a head start with Arne's assistance.


    Last modified: 03 Feb 2023 06:55 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Feb 2023 00:42
    Reply # 13082984 on 13078361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I don’t quite understand, Arne.


    Two questions: the first is a small point, relating to your nomenclature.

    The two diagrams appear to show identical junk sails in identical positions.

    The CE appears to be identical, as far as I can tell, with the Bermudan CE.

    And it runs vertically through the point you have marked “CE1”.

    The halyard angle is shown as 5 degrees.

    I can not see any diagram showing the sail in the "forward position" (which you refer to as “CE2” ) but I would expect it to have a different halyard angle from the above, yet you have said that "The CE2 position is with the junk-sail pushed forward until the halyard angle is only 5° from vertical..."

    Is there some mis-labelling here, or a diagram missing? Or am I missing something?


    The second question is much more important and refers to the drawing you are working from.

    I do not understand your terminology "CLR1" and "CLR2"

    Surely this hull has a fixed underwater profile and therefore must have only one centre of lateral plane. I note that your lead calculations are based on a point you have marked CLR2. 

    I don’t have a way to quickly check, but eye-balling it, it seems that the point you have marked CLR1 might be the actual centre of lateral plane for that hull profile shown in your drawing. (Or, perhaps these are just "rudder in" and "rudder out" calculations?)

    Then Arne wrote: "I trust Bingham as a designer; He would not sell a number of plans without getting the helm’s balance right first..."

    If that comment, and your two CLR positions, indicate that actually you have been having some doubts – then I share them. (I don't doubt Bruce Bingham, but I wonder about the public domain drawings). I must say the bermudan sail plan does look a little too far forward on that hull profile (although it often seems that way with that sort of keel so I don’t really trust my uneducated guesses).

    Anyway, there is still some ambiguity here. According to the "History of the Flicka" article, after the boat was first featured in Rudder magazine in 1972 as a ferrocement design the sail plan was changed (also the displacement was drastically changed - and therefore perhaps also the underwater profile?)

    These two sail plans look to have quite different CEs. The first, with its overhanging boom and fractional rig with relatively small foretriangle - the second with its shorter boom and overlapping masthead rig.

    The internal layout has changed quite markedly too (for such a small boat) which possibly suggests a change in hull shape as well?)



    SailboatData website shows a third sail plan - possibly a cutter rig, anyway with large foretriangle and inner forestay.


    I have not personally seen a single drawing showing the later bermudan rig placed in the same drawing on an actual hull profile, in the manner of that first drawing. (Where did you get yours from?)

    If the displacement was changed from 10,000 to 5,500 lb !!! (according to that article) then maybe the under water hull profile changed too?

    It almost leads me to wonder if there are two different Flicka designs.  I wonder if the public domain illustrations have led us to a hybrid - the later sailplan and later internal layout superimposed on an earlier hull profile drawing.

    I hope I am not adding useless confusion, but a question mark still remains in my mind.  I do not trust my limited ability enough to say there is something wrong - surely what I am suggesting is highly unlikely. Perhaps there is an explanation which I am missing.

    I would quite like to see an actual set of plans as sold by Bringham, I am not sure if public domain illustrations can always be relied on.

    At the end of the day, I suppose Kristoff's Flicka is the later version, and that the bermudan CE position which you have adopted as a basis for your junk mast position is the correct one.

    I guess that's all that really matters.


    Last modified: 03 Feb 2023 06:52 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Feb 2023 21:52
    Reply # 13082777 on 13078361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Now I tried my hands on drawing a JR for her. The question was if I could bring the CE far enough forward. I trust Bingham as a designer; He would not sell a number of plans without getting the helm’s balance right first.
    The shown “CE1” is the one in use here, and the same as for the Bermudan rig. The CE2 position is with the junk-sail pushed forward until the halyard angle is only 5° from vertical.

    This may look like a moderate size sail; only two sqm bigger than the original, but I had no idea of how Kristof intends to use the boat, and I had to start somewhere.

    Arne

    Edit, 3. Feb. 2023:
    The halyard angle is actually 15 degrees, but the 'ten-digit' was hidden behind that thick, blue halyard line on the drawings...




    (Hi-res diagrams on Arne's sketches, section 7, photo 10 and 11)

    Last modified: 03 Feb 2023 09:56 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Feb 2023 14:49
    Reply # 13082208 on 13081998
    Hans-Erik wrote:
     I bought my Flicka 20 at a very affordable price since she is in a rough condition and needs more or less total refit. I intend to keep her for a long time and I want her to become a JUNK! 

    I am going to start the process soon and I will try to post the progress.

    Regards,

    Kristof

    In that case, GO FOR IT, you will have a whole lot of fun in the process and we will enjoy your progress reports.

    Kristof, I would like to flip-flop on my opinion. I thought you had a Flicka 20 in ready-to-sail condition. If the boat needs the be refit to make her seaworthy, and you intend to sail the boat yourself for many years, then I also say you should go for it. Make your Flicka 20 your own, with your own Junk Rig.

    Graeme, I don't have my old rig because I want to keep it. It is taking up a lot of space behind my house. If anyone knows someone who wants a mast and boom from an S2 6.7 please let me know. I have given up on finding a buyer who wants it for their sailboat, and I can't bring myself to sell it as scrap metal.

    Last modified: 02 Feb 2023 14:53 | Anonymous member
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