Selway-Fisher Pioneer 23

  • 12 Sep 2017 12:27
    Reply # 5076002 on 5073855

    The professional designer of stock plans has to prepare plans that can be all things to all men, wheras you as the customer need to be selective about which parts of a stock design you adopt, which parts you reject. Leaving out the inboard motor will save you thousands. Of course, an inboard diesel is convenient, but a young, strong man can get by with a sweep or a yuloh, and an old, weak man (like me) can get by with a petrol outboard.

    I see no reason for thinking that the Benford 26 would be more difficult to build. It would be more expensive, as cost tends to be in proportion to displacement. The Benford weighs twice as much as the Selway Fisher, so the basic structure might cost twice as much. However, many people get carried away with equipment, goodies and boys-toys, and this is what runs away with the money. Stick to the principle that we mention quite often around here - Keep It Simple, Sailor - and you can get the boat you need for a reasonable price. No plumbing - water from containers, not a tank; a composting heads. Few electrics - simple LED lighting, minimal electronics. Simple furniture. A simple cooker. Make your own junk sail. That sort of thing.

    I see that you are based in Michigan, where twin keels will be a rarity. Here in the UK, they have been used for a long time, as we have many drying harbours. For the long-term cruiser, it's an enormous advantage in a small boat to be able to go into a sheltered corner and take the ground when a gale is forecast. At sea, well designed twin keels have no seakeeping disadvantages. They are maybe a bit slower, having more surface area, but my Hunter Duette can't be much slower than her fin keeled sister, the Sonata. As far as the dory style hull is concerned, either a single or twin keels will be bolted through the transverse floors across the flat bottom, so structurally there's no difference.

  • 12 Sep 2017 11:39
    Reply # 5075968 on 5073855
    Deleted user



    Arne,

    I have considered building a smaller simpler boat for the exact reason you've mentioned but I've shied away from that since I have no need for another boat that size. I am kind of torn on this subject, while the added experience would no doubt help me greatly in my skills the end result of suck a project would be one that isn't really useful to me. My smaller boat needs are filled very well by my Hobie Cat and Sunfish. What I still am considering is building a tender craft that will have a use when I do have a larger boat (built by me or not) to give me a taste of building a boat. 


    David,

    The Benford is one that I've bumped into a few times. I like the idea of more room and having a inboard engine but these both come at a greater cost of course. How much more difficult of a build would the Benford be over the Pioneer? Also what advantage would the twin keels have over a more traditional keel? Aside from the grounding ability described in the article, which is nice, twin keels make a little nervous about construction and (maybe I am totally wrong here) I feel like they would be more fragile comparatively speaking. But the Benford looks good and the layout shown shows a lot of promise for what I am looking for and (possibly) aside from the keels I like it's added fetures. I guess it's a matter of how much greater the cost and difficulty to build is. I'm guessing the cost increase is hard to guess on, but are we talking 5-10% increase or 25% increase?

  • 12 Sep 2017 10:38
    Reply # 5075920 on 5073855
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Colin,
    if you haven’t built a boat before, could it be an idea to start by building a 10-14’ dinghy first? If built in the same material and method as the bigger Selway Fisher, this pre-project will fill up your bag of experience:

    1.      You’ll learn basically how things are being done, from measuring, cutting, erecting and handling epoxy. It is better to take the first steps in a not-so-important project.

    2.      You’ll learn how long it takes. You may well find that the little project steals more time from your life than you thought. Good then not to have started a big, expensive building project yet.

    3.      You may find that you really like the building process. Good! Then you are being rewarded every day (..or not...).

    Whatever you choose to do, good luck!

    Arne

    PS: I very much agree with David's comments yesterday on improving the rudder - but then I am quite a rudder fanatic...


    Last modified: 12 Sep 2017 10:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 12 Sep 2017 10:37
    Reply # 5075918 on 5073855

    Have you considered the Benford 26 dory? This would appear to be a closer match to your aspirations, with a junk rig and maybe some changes to the accommodation.

    Last modified: 12 Sep 2017 10:39 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Sep 2017 09:55
    Reply # 5075863 on 5073855
    Deleted user


    Annie,

    You have done a wonderful job on your boat, I've enjoyed checking in your progress. I dabble in freelance journalism and I pitched the idea for trying to get an interview with you to a sailing magazine I had been trying to get in with.  Being an outsider from their normal writing roster the article didn't get ordered but I really wish it would have. You have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration from me for all you've done in the sailing world. 

    David,

    Your concerns on the design are troubling. I had concerns about the displacement in regards to open ocean sailing. Seems like it's a double edged sword, light displacement boats tend to be more rookie friendly to build but have limitations to their use. Still the simplitcy of the design is very promising to me. Now as far as the check list for a potentials builder I hit pretty much all of them. I run my own business and have the winters largely off, also have a larger, semi-heated former factory building that my dad owns, I have few bills, no spouse or children and an inexpensive lifestyle. My friend group includes some carpenters but almost all are tradesmen of some kind, I myself was a painter at one time. My background is mostly with automobiles, I drove race cars for awhile but found that sailing was far more fun. Winter is a dead time for me, with work drying up in the cold months and me hating the snow, building a boat seems like a good way to ward off cabin fever. Convergion a existing boat has crossed my mind but every time I end up looking at plans again to build, it just feels right, if that make sense. 


  • 12 Sep 2017 08:57
    Reply # 5075843 on 5073855

    Colin, an experienced, determined sailor could certainly nurse a Pioneer 23 across the Atlantic, by way of the Azores, but it wouldn't be the boat of choice. If you've studied the literature, and the people and boats that have completed the Jester Challenge, for example, I think you'll have seen that a larger, heavier boat has more chance of success, without putting the sailor off sailing for life. It has been done, and will continue to be done, but let's not pretend that crossing oceans in boats of this size is for any but the stoutest of heart. In the junk rig sphere, the names of Pete Hill and Roger Taylor come readily to mind, as having made ocean passages in small boats, and these are consummate seamen by any standard. As you may know, I've made a number of ocean crossings in a 35ft boat, and that feels quite small enough when you're out in the middle and the weather gets dirty. I would suggest that you consider it as a learning project, with a view to cruising for a few years until you know what kind and size of boat you yourself would see as suitable for the crossing, rather than what anyone else thinks. 

    To my my mind, these are the factors that contribute to success in a boatbuilding project:

    • You have an overwhelming urge to create beautiful and useful things, and a good track record of so doing
    • You have enough experience to know in detail exactly what kind of boat you need to build, and why, and that boat is not currently available in the marketplace
    • You have a low rent, sheltered and convenient place to build
    • You have enough spare time and money to complete the project quickly, without having to worry about earning an income
    • You have a pool of willing, skilled friends and relatives who will bear a hand when needed
    • And probably some more
    If any of those factors are missing, the project will likely stumble, if not fail. If your principle aim is to enjoy building a boat, then go ahead; but if your principle aim is to go sailing, then the easiest, cheapest and quickest way is to buy an older existing boat in need of renovation and rig conversion, as it's a buyer's market for these. 
  • 12 Sep 2017 08:24
    Reply # 5075814 on 5075061
    Annie Hill wrote:
    Colin Walker wrote:I too share the concern about how a first time builder would get by with SibLim, which is why I shied away eventually from that design.
    I am a first time builder :-)
    With the most profound respect, madam, you are not. You have been second-in-command on two new builds, and are by no means a tyro in the article of handing wood, epoxy, paint and sailcloth.
  • 11 Sep 2017 21:50
    Reply # 5075061 on 5074787
    Colin Walker wrote:I too share the concern about how a first time builder would get by with SibLim, which is why I shied away eventually from that design.
    I am a first time builder :-)
  • 11 Sep 2017 19:32
    Reply # 5074787 on 5073855
    Deleted user

    David,

    So you are the designer of SibLim? That design is what insirped me to go down the "flush deck" path, I love that design. I too share the concern about how a first time builder would get by with SibLim, which is why I shied away eventually from that design. But I am a huge fan of that boat, I go to Annie's page once in awhile to see how everything is coming along. 

    In regards to Pioneer, I to thought something looked goofy with the rudder, my impression was it would either have heavy steering boat or slow reacting steering (maybe both to some level). If/when the time comes I will discuss this with Paul. It is good to hear from an outside source that it should be relatively easy to build, also that she should be able to hold enough stores to last awhile. Now what do you think of Pioneer's blue water capabilies? Crossing the Atlantic by sail is on the bucket list, would the Pioneer be a design to entertain that thought in? I know as much depends on the sailor as the boat but some designs are better suited than others.


    Thank you for the fast reply David, hope to hear from you soon.


  • 11 Sep 2017 14:57
    Reply # 5074173 on 5073855

    Hello Colin,

    This would make a good first boatbuilding project. It has much in common with the Benford dories, and is probably the quickest and easy type of hull to build. Starting from the same stack of plywood, you could build a better boat, but only with more investment of time and skill. I prefer a five-sided, rather than three-sided hull, like the one I drew for Annie's SibLim, but I hesitate to suggest it as a first building project, otherwise I could scale down SibLim for you.

    The flat bottom makes the settee lockers more usable than with a round bilge, and in combination with the faceted, not cambered, deck gives you headroom over a wider area. She will carry enough to be independent of the shore for a few weeks, so long as you are happy with a minimalist lifestyle. I have been comfortable aboard Weaverbird , a boat of  the same length but lighter displacement, for the four summer months, but I would need a warmer climate overall to spend longer aboard full time. 

    The inclined topsides make it a little more difficult to keep the fenders in place, when lying against a pontoon, if that's important to you.

    This design of rudder proved unsatisfactory on the Benford dories, and in this size of boat, you have to make the most of the length. Noting Paul Fisher's willingness to make changes, I would ask him to draw a vertical transom and extend the bottom to meet it. This will increase the sailing length and she will carry a load more gracefully, with less immersion of the transom. The rudder can then become a simple vertical rectangle, and there will be less load on the tiller.

    As to the rig, we can probably help you towards a form of JR with better handling and performance, if you decide to build.

    Last modified: 11 Sep 2017 15:10 | Anonymous member
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software