Ingeborg and Jester - comparisions between sail area and cambered or flat panels.

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  • 07 Aug 2016 00:43
    Reply # 4176568 on 4175442

    I call Ingeborg's rig huge, in comparison to Jester's, not because of mast height but in relation to sail area.  Jester's rig has quite a high-aspect ratio.  This is not a criticism, as I am an advocate of big rigs, regardless of whether the vessel is a junk or not.  As Bernard Moitessier said, you can always reef but once all the sail is fully up, that's it.  As Arne points out, the junk rig is so easy to reef that this concept is even more attractive.  It is especially important for junk rigs because the extra sail area acts as your light-weather canvas since one cannot set genoas and kites.

    In relation to downwind sailing - I am sure Jester's rig can be driven harder downwind than Ingeborg's (or Arion's) but I don't really see this as being much of an advantage.  The rig is so powerful off the wind that you don't need much sail area.  I often sail Arion downwind with just the three fanned top panels in fresh winds and lope along at 4-5 knots with no weather helm, no stress on the rig or, most importantly, on the skipper!

    To windward I carry a lot more sail for a given wind strength.  With the sheet eased, the boat hardly heels and remains balanced.  The top three panels, as Arne points out, offer a superbly efficient shape for heavy weather sailing.  I am willing to stick my neck out and declare that the Hasler/Mcleod sailplan, modified by Arne's transitional panel, is the best junk rig configuration developed so far, with or without camber.

    So I think a Folkboat with this rig and a modest amount of camber would make a very good showing in the Jester challenge or any other ocean passage.  I am sympathetic with Arne's position on sailing Ingeborg across the ocean, however, since my own health is also becoming increasingly fragile.  I have just sailed Arion 1200 miles up the east coast of Australia and am still dreaming of ocean passages but there are days when I wonder if I will still be sailing next year.  What I do know is that my wonderful, easy to reef junk rig is likely to keep me sailing longer than any other rig would.


  • 06 Aug 2016 20:24
    Reply # 4176317 on 4176052
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    My slightly fragile carcass is not fit for solo offshore challenges. Right now I have been grounded  for over a week  - and will so be for the next few ones  -   with a cracked chest bone.
    Only when I laugh...

    Cheers, Arne

     

    Ouch! Get well soon! 
    Last modified: 06 Aug 2016 20:25 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Aug 2016 12:07
    Reply # 4176052 on 4175442
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    This topic raises a number of sub topics; camber, rig size, radical versus conservative, fit for offshore or not, etc.

    Rig size first.
    I have PJR and a calculator by my side, right now. I find that Jester’s mast height is about 10.3m above the water line. Ingeborg’s mast is only about 9.6m tall (above wl.). Still, one seems to regard Ingeborg’s rig to be the ‘huge’ one.

    I wonder when it will sink in that the JR can be reefed quite easily: Now, I haven’t been out in a ‘three-panel wind’ in Ingeborg yet, but in my much tippier Frøken Sørensen, a brisk F5 is enough to call for three panels when I am alone on board. My experience is that those three top panels are remarkably efficient to windward. No creases and no fluttering leech. The lee topping lift limits the twist to just the right one to adds a bit camber to the sail. The topping lift also seems to ease the load on the battens. I once was forced to reef FS to only two panels and even with this handkerchief (6sqm) I was able to tack her, although the tacking angle was quite wide. I also remember that Johanna was happy under three panels in a blow.

    Jester’s rig has one big advantage: Her high boom and short chord sail (max 3.43m) ensures easy downwind handling. The broader low-balance sails I usually design will require a good rudder and powerful self-steering. I have started to compare my sails’ chord with the waterline of the boats. The present rig of Ingeborg has a chord/waterline ratio of 0.80, which I think is on the edge of being too high. If I were to design an offshore sail for her (same mast), I would reduce the battens from 4.9 to 4.7m and make the sail just a bit taller. That would shave off less than a square meter.

    As for Ingeborg versus Jester in the 2018 Jester challenge: No way, at least with me on board! My slightly fragile carcass is not fit for solo offshore challenges. Right now I have been grounded  for over a week  - and will so be for the next few ones  -   with a cracked chest bone.
    Only when I laugh...

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: Jester’s rig was radical enough when it was designed, (just as the first T-Ford was), but it is sad that Jester II got a holy grail status, so any research and development work on it was out of the question.

       

    Last modified: 14 Nov 2021 08:33 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 06 Aug 2016 09:12
    Reply # 4175879 on 4175442
    Graham Cox wrote:

    Jester is one of our icons and will always be deeply loved.  But the question is, would one fit such a conservative rig to a Folkboat or equivalent if designing the rig today? I think not, but am interested in dissenting opinions.

    More seriously - no, one wouldn't. It has to be remembered that this was the first junk rig that Blondie had designed, as an alternative to the Lapwing rig, with limited time to get Jester fit for the 1960 transatlantic race. The decision to go for a conservative rig was totally justifiable. Better to get there in one piece, slowly, than not to get there at all. Single-handed ocean sailing itself was still very much a minority thing, let alone single-handing under junk rig, and virtually nothing was known about what kind of junk rig would be optimal for the job. We know a little more, now, thanks to Blondie.
  • 06 Aug 2016 08:55
    Reply # 4175868 on 4175442

    ... so how about it, then, Arne? Ingeborg vs Jester, head-to-head in the 2018 Jester challenge? 

    Last modified: 06 Aug 2016 08:56 | Anonymous member
  • 05 Aug 2016 23:37
    Message # 4175442

    I decided to post my previous comment from the BOTM as a separate topic as I am very interested in contemplating the differences between Ingeborg's performance and Jester's.  It would be interesting (but unlikely) to get the two boats together.

    Jester, of course, has been primarily used for offshore work and has acquitted herself very well.  How would Ingeborg fare on an offshore passage?  Very well, I think, since her huge sail area would keep her ghosting in the light stuff but when she was deeply reefed, down to some combination of the last three panels say, the rig would be rock solid and easily managed.  This is one of the great advantages of junk rigs.

    In his latest book, Mingming 11 and the Islands of the Ice, Roger Taylor talks about just that.  He fitted a huge cambered sail to Mingming 11 and was delighted by her light weather performance at sea, compared to the original Mingming, while the deeply reefed sail was as solid and dependable as ever in heavy weather.

    Jester is one of our icons and will always be deeply loved.  But the question is, would one fit such a conservative rig to a Folkboat or equivalent if designing the rig today? I think not, but am interested in dissenting opinions.

    PS: The new sail I had built for Arion is flat, though the design gives it a bit of shape.  It does have a lot of sail area.  I'm happy with that compromise, though the boat is slower to windward and in stays.  I'm happy with it, though reading about Mingming11's voyage  and looking at photos of Ingeborg makes me wonder if I should have used cambered panels again.

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