Galion 22 conversion

  • 02 Oct 2021 18:11
    Reply # 11135544 on 5070195


    Valuable thoughts, thanks.

    On the videos we are pointing as high as we can. Just a pinch more and the whole sail would collapse.

    I can’t see a way to move the panels on the battens, because there is no extra room. This would mean squeezing the panels and thus losing the shape.

    Thanks to the hinged system of the panels, I could increase the sheeting angle by making new hinges, no new jibs would be needed. However, I wonder if I might as well make 10-20 cm longer jibs.

  • 02 Oct 2021 17:49
    Reply # 11135487 on 5070195

    Hi Jami,

    It's unlikely you suddenly turned into a bad sailor.

    I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with option (a).  There just isnt enough space between the jiblets and the main for all the air coming off the jiblets to escape, without running into the luff of the main. The collapsing main is going to reduce the forward vector of power being produced as well.

    While increasing the jib sheeting angle should in theory mean you can't point as high, perhaps the less restricted flow of air of a wider slot might improve the overall power being developed.

    One disadvantage of the SJR is that we can't ease out the jib to open up the gap.  It does sound like there's a lot of air trying to squeeze through the gap.  As can be seen in your video, when the gust increases so does the backwinding of the main, which seems to indicate a lack of space for the air to escape.

    I wonder if you are pointing as high as you really can despite what the telltales are saying?

    Might you try, purely for experimentation, to luff up slowly until the jibs are just being backwinded and see if your tacking angle and VMG speed improves. See what the telltales are doing as well, at that time.

    Also, close-hauled angle is not the only game in town.  Your Velocity Made Good upwind is also a consideration, I suppose.

    I suppose, again for experimentation, before getting out the sewing machine again, you could try moving the main panel back from the Mast and/or the jiblets forward to see if a larger gap might do the trick before sewing yet more panels or lenses to increase the sheeting angle of the jibs.

    Though of course moving the main back is likely to increase weather helm a bit again.

    The above suggestions might be worth a look before dragging out the sewing machine again.

    regards DaveD.

  • 02 Oct 2021 17:46
    Reply # 11135483 on 5070195

    Hi Arne,

     Apologies  Jami, I’ve no wish to hijack your thread, so will respond to Arne’s “really?” here

    Last modified: 02 Oct 2021 18:48 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Oct 2021 15:58
    Reply # 11135366 on 11135353

    Now, with the new powerful rudder in place, would it be possible to try your boat with the un-split sail once more?


    I wish - but unfortunately (and then again fortunately) I sold the sail and it was shipped to Britain.

  • 02 Oct 2021 15:50
    Reply # 11135361 on 11135099
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Paul wrote:

    Hi Jami,

    On my SJR rig I haven’t encountered these problems.
    BooTwo will point about 35 degrees off the apparent wind, and will happily exceed hull speed close hauled. Weather helm only becomes aggressive when I should have reefed earlier, and is a sign for me to drop a couple of panels.

    good luck!

    Since the hull speed of a Sadler 25 should be 5.86 knots, then your boat is the better part of one knot faster when close-hauled than Ingeborg. She does at most 4.8kts with full sail, and maybe 5.1-5.2kts with one or two reefs (hull speed=5.99kts).

    This must make your Sadler 25 the fastest one on The Planet to windward.

  • 02 Oct 2021 15:40
    Reply # 11135353 on 5070195
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    About pointing angle; I wonder if you expect a little too much from the SJR? As far as I know, there has not been any other boat which has been converted from a fully cambered un-split JR to SJR, so it is hard to tell. However, after having met a few boats (with BR) the last seasons, and tested my Ingeborg and Frøken Sørensen against them while closehauled, I think one will have a hard time outpointing my boats. Of the three last boats I met on a beat (light to moderate winds); an Alo28, a grp Knarr and an Albin Express (!), two of them went as fast or faster than Ingeborg through water, but Ingeborg still outpointed them enough to keep up with them or beat them.
    Therefore, if someone shows up in Stavanger with an IF, to race against us, he or she must have a seriously good rig to beat us.

    I wonder if the main forte of the SJR (over the unsplit low-balance JR) is lighter sheet forces and easier steering on a reech?

    Now, with the new powerful rudder in place, would it be possible to try your boat with the un-split sail once more?


  • 02 Oct 2021 12:56
    Reply # 11135133 on 5070195

    Thanks Paul,

    the weather helm is no more present - it has gone away with the SJR and a new rudder (which you will notice if you read far enough backwards on this thread).

    The problems that I have are upwind lack of speed + tacking angle vs what should be expected from a SJR.

    Last modified: 02 Oct 2021 13:28 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Oct 2021 12:24
    Reply # 11135099 on 5070195

    Hi Jami,

    I really really admire your workmanship and am sorry to hear you’ve been having problems with your rig.

    I assume looking at your photos that your mast position remained unchanged from it’s Johanna sail position, and that this was why you constructed your SJR sail with less balance than recommended , ie shorter jiblets?

    I’m wondering if this has meant that less power from your jiblets has shifted your centre of effort aft, thus resulting in the aggressive weather helm you have experienced? I am only speculating, hopefully someone with more knowledge than I will chime in.

    On my SJR rig I haven’t encountered these problems.
    BooTwo will point about 35 degrees off the apparent wind, and will happily exceed hull speed close hauled. Weather helm only becomes aggressive when I should have reefed earlier, and is a sign for me to drop a couple of panels.

    I mention this not in any way to gloat, but just as a comparison to illustrate that whatever the cause of your issues, I’m confident in the effectiveness of Slieve’s design.
    I am sure you’ll get to the bottom of it.

    good luck!

  • 01 Oct 2021 08:50
    Reply # 11132300 on 5070195

    Ok, time for an autumnal update. I will not lift the boat up for the winter until the freezing sea forces me to, though.

    I haven't been able to sail us much during this season as I was hoping to. But more than nautical miles, I was able to gather different sea states and wind conditions.

    I'm not a very organized person, so these are just some thoughts without any measurements or skillful engineer analytics.


    The new rudder and skeg -combination has been a success. The worst of the weather helm has been eliminated, and the boat steers much more stable. Of course one has to remember that the rudder can not change the characteristics of the hull itself.

    Using dyneema lashings and giving generous balance area made steering very light even in strong following winds. The self steering system is happy.

    However, the quite big angle (given by the angle of the transom) has given some trouble with self steering, but nothing that can't be fixed. 

    I also might have lost some speed in the process, but this was to be expected.


    The new, lighter topmast is also a great success. The difference in the momentum can be felt really well, when e.g. hitting waves. Despite the lightness and tapering to as low as 60mm diameter, I haven't noticed anything that would worry me. Not even when I have sailed with full sail in way too strong winds (which of course one shouldn't do - naughty me).

    The SJR sail on the other hand has left me with somewhat mixed feelings. This is more obvious after the second season, because now I have a topmast with less windage.

    Although my sail hasn't got as much balance as adviced by Slieve (33%), together with the new rudder the aggresive weather helm is solved.

    For next season I will fiddle with the sticking downhauls (my fault). After several different sheeting versions I now have a twin-sheeting system, which seems to control the sail well (despite the annoying amount of ropes).

    On the downside, the performance of the sail itself has been some kind of disappointment. One has to remember that I have an Arne/Johanna style sail to compare to on the same hull.

    A disclaimer is needed, anyway: I have changed the rudder and the mast, and all of my impressions on the performance are impressions only with no hard data.

    The point of disappointment is the tacking angle and boat speed when close hauled. If I compare these to the impressions in my memory with the Arne-style sail, the SJR doesn't seem to be an improvement - on the issue of tacking angle, it might even be a step backwards.

    A typical tacking route with the old sail:


    And with the SJR:

    Disclaimer #2: If I indeed have stepped back in the upwind performance, it is almost certainly because of my own doings as a sailmaker or sailor.


    I think the problem (if there is one) lies in the jibs. See this video, and this too. On these, we sail with three and four panels pointing as high as we can.

    As you can see especially in the backlit sail, the telltales are flying nicely. However, the main panels are starting to collapse. On the lowest panel one might put the blame on the too loose downhaul, but on the upper ones this is not the case.

    The same phenomena can be seen when sailing with the full sail up, but I haven't got a proper video of that.

    I have understood that the jibs should collapse before the mains. On these videos (and in life) there is no sign of it when the mains start flapping.

    So, a few options come to mind:

    a) The sheeting angle of the jibs is too small
    b) The jibs are too small/flat
    c) There's something wrong on the top panels
    e) The aggressive weather helm was needed to point well
    d) There's something wrong with the mains
    e) I'm a lousy sailor

    The sheeting angles are made as Slieve suggests (was it 12 deg?). There should also be enough camber (also made as suggestion on the instructions).

    My own theory is this: the chord length of the jibs is only 80cm, and the lower mast is 120mm. The 12 deg sheeting angle doesn't create a big enough slot - especially to work well with the mast, maybe not even to work well enough on the "good" tack.

    Could the short chord length also mean that the jib doesn't form a physically big enough form for the camber?

    I could fix the a) by adding gradually longer "hinges" on the jibs. The b) would need making new jibs and possibly extending the battens 10-20 cm on the forward end.

    On the point c) one must notice, that I haven't followed Slieve's sail shape. I have two top panels instead of only one, and they are both split, whereas Slieve suggests a continuous top panel. Have I made something stupid?

    The only thing on d) that I can think of, is maybe too loose luffs. However, to my eye this doesn't seem to be a problem at least most of the times.

    On the e) I have nothing to say, except that the weather helm was impossible to live with (especially for self steering). Anyone?

    And then we have the f)-factor. This is something that would need lots of meditation and possibly accepting things as they are...


    I have also had to question the light, small boat issue vs. the sailing conditions I have. The force of the waves (not the long ocean ones but the smaller, denser, misbehaving shallow-sea ones) seem to be the thing that makes sailing against the wind more miserable than any sail issue. I might have too light a boat for my conditions - but then again I don't want a bigger one. More daoist meditation needed, I guess.

    Last modified: 01 Oct 2021 12:25 | Anonymous member
  • 29 Jun 2021 10:03
    Reply # 10710243 on 5070195
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Me too.
    However if one loose end is long enough, I tend to tie it onto something with a rolling hitch, as on my sheetlets.
    Talking about those, my MkII Johanna-sheet on Ingeborg now have two one-piece sheetlets, which make it simpler to adjust their length (as short as possible). If you look up the fresh appendix to last year’s write-up, you will see how I did it. That new ‘soft euphroe’ works very well.


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