S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

  • 17 Aug 2021 01:58
    Reply # 10935918 on 6872873

    "Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?"

    Can't recall where I read it--PJR, maybe?--but you can wrap the battens in leather. I don't know about the noise, but it would protect the finish on both battens and mast.

  • 16 Aug 2021 23:20
    Reply # 10935694 on 10935197
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David Thatcher wrote:

    One way you could stop and rest for a while is to drop all sail and use a small parachute sea anchor from the bow. These small parachute anchors are very common now in New Zealand where fishers in small powered craft use them for stopping and fishing while in deeper water.


    David, how big are those parachute sea anchors? I have made a number of 6-sector parachutes. I use them (from the stern) to slow down my boat while hoisting sail.

    Now that I think of it; this setup should work well for 'heaving to' under JR. Just set 2-3 panels and sheet in enough to keep the sail quiet, then set the sea anchor and lash the tiller to leeward. I will try this next time I am out in my Ingeborg, and then report back.

    Arne

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2021 23:26 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Aug 2021 20:07
    Reply # 10935197 on 10935063
    Scott wrote:

    I would like to have some sort of strategy for stopping and waiting in bigger weather. Maybe a windvane is needed.

    Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?

    This is one area where the junk rig is not so good. There are a lot of hard heavy spars being the battens, yard and boom, and these are not held that rigidly against the mast, and then there is all the weight in the complete sail package which is quite considerable compared to a bermudan sail.

    The first sail we had on Footprints was really bad for banging and crashing against the mast. It just had hard bearing surfaces on the battens, yard, and boom, and with conventional parrels there was always enough slop in the system for the spars to come away slightly from the mast, and then crash back in again. This however was not a problem on the second sail that David Tyler helped me make. He had the great idea of sewing soft cell foam onto all the batten, yard and boom pockets as soft fendering. I also fitted webbing parrels which were long fore and aft and I was able to keep these very tight which kept the battens etc. hard against the mast. Even ocean crossing we had no issues with creaking and groaning and slatting. So what is probably needed is softer cushioning between the mast and sail spars, and maybe a better parrel system to hold the sail bundle closer to the mast.

    The other thing though is to stop the sail package moving from side to side and for this you really need to set up a preventer system to hold the sail package in position athwartships.

    Regarding stopping and waiting, a windvane probably would not help you a lot there because they need forward motion of the boat to produce the steering force. Even a tiller pilot would struggle in that situation unless the boat is fore reaching at a couple of knots.

    One way you could stop and rest for a while is to drop all sail and use a small parachute sea anchor from the bow. These small parachute anchors are very common now in New Zealand where fishers in small powered craft use them for stopping and fishing while in deeper water.

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2021 20:15 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Aug 2021 18:48
    Reply # 10935063 on 6872873

    Hi Arne,

    Thank you for the quick response. In these conditions with wind something like 10 knots and waves around 2 feet I probably would have been better off taking the whole sail down and just lying ahull. I would like to have some sort of strategy for stopping and waiting in bigger weather. Maybe a windvane is needed.

    Edit: I found an excellent discussion on this topic here.

    Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2021 20:24 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Aug 2021 17:29
    Reply # 10934928 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,
    I only ease the sheet to stop my boat for a short while, like when letting a utility craft pass.
    The long term way is to reef down to two or one panel and sheet the sail in, maybe until it stalls. Problem is that someone (or something like a windvane) is needed to keep the course. Nothing beats heaving to with a backed jib, but at least you should make the JR quite quiet this way.

    Arne


  • 16 Aug 2021 16:33
    Reply # 10934791 on 6872873

    I need some help.

    After enjoying all the things that my current boat and junk rig do better than my previous boat, I have now found one case where the South Coast 23 with a full keel and Bermudian Mast Head rig was more pleasant.

    With the jib backwinded, the main sheeted all the way in, and the tiller pushed all the way to leeward the SC23 would heave-to beautifully. The boat would stop and sit there, balanced by the wind, drifting just enough so that the uncomfortable motion from the waves disappeared. It was like magic. It was almost silent.

    A couple of days ago I tried to get my junk rigged S2 6.7 to slowly forereach for a few hours while I got some rest. I had the sheet let out some and the tiller fixed slightly to leeward. The actual course and speed were more or less what I intended. The boat would round up slightly, lose drive from the sail, fall back off the wind, and then do it all over again. I think I did the maneuver correctly.

    But the noise!

    Something, somewhere, in the rig creaks and groans when the sail swings back and forth. I think it is the tack parrel and/or the yard hauling parrel that squeak and creak and groan as they slide around the mast. 

    The battens bonking against the mast were also very loud and chaotic. 

    Both of these noises were happening the whole time, as the sail continually oscillated between being powered up and luffing. The sound was much louder down below with the entire hull vibrating. I could not really get any rest.

    I hope I can improve this behavior. I would appreciate hearing any advice anyone may have.

    Scott.

  • 15 Aug 2021 10:01
    Reply # 10932542 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Bonjour

    It is the TPS ! The link was a video showing Escoffier jumping in the sea in the deep south in a TPS to be transfered to a navy ship. Temperature should be around 0°C !! Escoffier spent a night in a life raft before being recovered by an other Vendée Globe competitor. He didn't suffer hypothermie.

    The TPS is mandatory for the Mini Transat. Not many offshore boats are unsinkable. To wear a TPS in a life raft would make it much more confortable : it keeps dry and warm : luccury in such environnement. I would have one per crew offshore. (I have mine and an other ar home).

    I didn't had to use it formally. I was so tired that I had an hallucination and decided that my keel was moving, in the middle of no-where. So I went for a survival exercise and wore the TPS all night, just in case. At day light I went for a swim in my TPS to check my keel. It was of course sound !
    Eric

  • 13 Aug 2021 17:12
    Reply # 10929536 on 10924691
    Eric wrote:

    Bonjour

    For me the most important issue is to be able to clip the harness while INSIDE the hull.

    During the Jester Challenge on a Figaro 1 a pointy with several headsails, spinnaker...

    I used to live with my harness clipped day and night : the dangerous event is when you have to go on deck after something unsuspected went wrong.

    I had a double tether a long one to be inside (clipped at the companion way) and the short one at helm or working on deck. I added to the hull on both side a rope, swinging to the hull on which I could clip the short tether once overboard to be able to reach the stern and the safety ladder. In addition I had permanently a knife around the neck to be able to cut the long tether.

    But Jester Challenge by the North route neither the Figaro 1 in racing mode should not really be considered as a cruising reference.

    I also had on board a safety suit TPS (cotten) that I used once.

    https://www.qwant.com/?client=brz-moz&t=videos&q=sauvetage+escofier+&o=0%3AU0-gIoBaNEc

    It's the only safety suit that you may wear before. It is as confortable as an oilskin, the gloves are separated and the incorporated water tight socks are compatible with the sea boots. It has being developed in collaboration with the Vendée Globe skippers.

    Eric


    Bonjour Eric,

    I was not able to find anything with the link you gave. I think this is the suit you were talking about. I am sure that this would be on my boat, and probably on me most of the time, if I was doing any racing or handling headsails on deck. I don't have any interest in either of those things. I find going up near the bow while the boat is pitching up and down in waves absolutely terrifying.

    I am prepared to do it if the rig gets fouled or breaks, but my plan is to stay in the cockpit unless I am in a harbor.

    What happened when you needed to use the suit?

  • 13 Aug 2021 16:48
    Reply # 10929473 on 10924582
    David wrote:

    I agree with your reasoning, Scott. For going forward, jackstays as near the centreline as possible, with a tether that only just reaches the deck. In the cockpit, a short tether to a central hoop. The aim is not to be able to fall over the guard wires when hooked on. All that a long tether gives is a false sense of security.  I use a simple waist belt with an arms-length tether.

    I bought a foam lined floatation suit, many years ago. Never used it in earnest. Never will, now.

    David,

    If you really want to use that flotation suit I am sure you could make a special trip out on the water to try it out and see if it keeps you from being lost to hypothermia. (I am joking, of course!)

    In all seriousness --  I think sailing as many miles as you have, never using the floatation suit, but having one anyway, is evidence of great seamanship and time well spent messing around in boats at sea.

  • 11 Aug 2021 14:43
    Reply # 10924691 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Bonjour

    For me the most important issue is to be able to clip the harness while INSIDE the hull.

    During the Jester Challenge on a Figaro 1 a pointy with several headsails, spinnaker...

    I used to live with my harness clipped day and night : the dangerous event is when you have to go on deck after something unsuspected went wrong.

    I had a double tether a long one to be inside (clipped at the companion way) and the short one at helm or working on deck. I added to the hull on both side a rope, swinging to the hull on which I could clip the short tether once overboard to be able to reach the stern and the safety ladder. In addition I had permanently a knife around the neck to be able to cut the long tether.

    But Jester Challenge by the North route neither the Figaro 1 in racing mode should not really be considered as a cruising reference.

    I also had on board a safety suit TPS (cotten) that I used once.

    https://www.qwant.com/?client=brz-moz&t=videos&q=sauvetage+escofier+&o=0%3AU0-gIoBaNEc

    It's the only safety suit that you may wear before. It is as confortable as an oilskin, the gloves are separated and the incorporated water tight socks are compatible with the sea boots. It has being developed in collaboration with the Vendée Globe skippers.

    Eric


    Last modified: 11 Aug 2021 17:27 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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