Update and expand Sailplans - Current & Early

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  • 22 Oct 2013 00:04
    Message # 1418534
    Deleted user
    I have transferred Dave Zeiger's excellent idea here, as a new project topic

    Dave says:

    "As a stepping-stone project (prior, and less detailed), I'd like to suggest expanding the Junk Information>Sailplans>Current and Early sections of the JRA site with the following:

    Generalized line plan of each sail -- scaleable with spar angles, showing typical control lines and explanation of peculiar features (e.g., extended lug on Sunbird 90 rig) along with a plan of the furled bundle(?).

    Brief history -- Already included, but could be expanded to indicate the type's goals (e.g., windward ability) and what was introduced to achieve them.

    Points list of pros and cons -- Such common considerations as cost, ease-of-construction and -handling, windward efficiency, tendency to foul, etc..

    Owner consensus -- Generally, does it work as intended? Is it favored by owners? Do folks tend to stick with the type or move on?

    Links to discussions, articles, etc.
    This needn't be the last word, but puts a lot of the distributed knowledge in the first place I (personally) looked. This sub-goal and any feedback it generates can serve to inform the larger goal of updating PJR.

    While I'm at it, I'd like to see and extra entry under this heading of modular approaches (e.g., camber, barrel camber, gurney flaps, batten approaches, luff curve, etc.), that is, those that can be applied to more or less any Sailplan.

    This site location would also be a good place to mount outcome of the Junk Vocabulary Project, another I consider to be of particularly high value.

    Last modified: 03 Feb 2014 15:12 | Anonymous member
  • 22 Oct 2013 00:13
    Reply # 1418539 on 1418534
    Deleted user
    Hi Dave,

    have you any thoughts about how you want to approach this?  Do you want to work on this alone / create a collaborative document for others to build on / or ?
    Last modified: 22 Oct 2013 00:13 | Deleted user
  • 23 Oct 2013 11:41
    Reply # 1419529 on 1418534
    Deleted user
    Hi Lesley,

    Unfortunately, I'm in the position of throwing out the idea and running.

    I'm time-strapped, this winter. More importantly, I don't have the JR knowledge (yet) to field this, nor the connectivity to be able to coordinate effectively on a project like of this size. I'm still just learning how to find my way around the JRA site!

    If I can help out by proof-reading or providing feedback on documents or drawings under development, I'd be glad to, through March 2014.

    Sorry I can't contribute more!

    Dave Z
  • 23 Oct 2013 20:33
    Reply # 1419905 on 1418534
    We can also link to sail dimension calculator spreadsheets. I've made one for Arne's Johanna and David Tyler's Fantail sailplans, just enter the desired sail area and you have all the measurement numbers for the sail. It would be nice and relatively easy to make similar ones for other plans as well. If the sailplans can each link to a forum thread then anyone can post comments and links referring to the sailplan. Then an admin can incorporate that information back into the sailplan page(s) at a later date. 

    I agree that the main sailplan page should be consistent illustrations; the photos are good and necessary, but not as good for technical comparison.
  • 25 Oct 2013 12:07
    Reply # 1421064 on 1418534
    Hi Karlis. Thanks for the suggestion which is a good one. However I should point out that as well as looking for ideas we're also looking for people to follow them up and do the work, in other words to turn site development into a team effort. Anyone going to put their hands up to get this project started? Volunteers would get the necessary admin status and free tuition :-)
    Last modified: 08 Nov 2013 23:28 | Anonymous member
  • 25 Oct 2013 16:35
    Reply # 1421186 on 1418534
    Deleted user
    Hi Dave,

    Who was it that said, 'The best way to get something done is to ask a busy person' ;o) 

    This is too inspired an idea for it to fall by the wayside, so how about we apply the salami principle? (No-one can eat a salami in one sitting, but slice it thinly enough you can polish it off eventually)

    Do you reckon you would have time enough to copy and paste your original idea into a document so it could be used as a questionnaire for others to complete? keep the formatting as simple as possible so we can keep our options open. Ie no tables, formatting, tabs etc. Just plain text

    You won't feel you've 'cut and run' and a start could be made by those who want to volunteer the info. We can figure out who does what with it later!

    Yours hopefully,

  • 25 Oct 2013 20:02
    Reply # 1421348 on 1418534
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Stavanger, Friday,

    My project of adding a chapter to  "The Cambered Panel Junk Rig" write-up has been idle for a good while now, mainly because I have played with real boats. Now that the sailing season is over, mostly, I hope to  have another go on it. I have been wondering on how to write  chapter 4; the one about designing each sail....

    [Webmaster note: I've moved Arne's post and the replies to a new Members' Project thread. Though the ideas were related to the main thrust of this thread, I felt it better to leave this one to germinate further. As Lesley said above, this project needs someone to get a grip on it and get people organsised. We didn't list these projects  for Committee members to take them on. We're rather hoping others will get involved :-]

    Last modified: 08 Nov 2013 23:47 | Anonymous member
  • 14 Nov 2013 23:08
    Reply # 1438707 on 1418534
    Deleted user
    Hi Lesley,

    I'd be happy to do that.

    Could you please drop me a line at triloboats ATT gmail DDOT com with what file format would be preferable, and to whom I should deliver the result? If you prefer, I can just post it here for feedback before it's finalized.

    I can likely have it for you by this weekend?

    Dave Z
  • 17 Nov 2013 05:01
    Reply # 1439914 on 1418534
    Deleted user
    Hi Lesley (and others),

    Here's a draft version, edited as a generalized questionnaire. It's unformatted, so can be copied from here, or I can supply it as a file in most formats. Any feedback welcome!



    The primary purpose of this project is to update and expand the >> Junk Information>Sailplans>Current and Early << sections of the JRA site. Secondarily, the information gathered, assembled and refined will help toward the JRA UPDATE PJR (Practical Junk Rig) PROJECT.

    The following have been suggested as useful information to be assembled for each major sailplan:

    * Representative photo -- Preferably profile shot from batten side (showing parrels), close-hauled and normalized to view from s'brd.

    * Generalized line plan -- Standard and scaleable with spar angles, showing typical control lines and keyed explanation of features, along with a plan of the furled bundle.

    * Brief history -- Include the developer(s), notable boats who've used the sailplan, it's goals (e.g., improved windward ability), what was introduced to achieve them, and some indication as to its current popularity.

    * Points list of pros and cons -- Such common considerations as cost, complexity, ease-of-construction and -handling, sail set, windward efficiency, tendency to foul, etc..

    * Owner consensus -- Generally, does it work as intended? Is it favored by owners? Do owners tend to stick with the type or move on?

    * Links to discussion threads, calculators, articles, photos, etc.

    * Dedicated Forum for suggestions and feedback on presentation.

    Additionally, the following have been suggested for similar presentation as modular approaches, which can be applied to, or modify, more or less any Sailplan:

    * Yard angle.

    * Batten Rise.

    * Rectangular vs triangular panels.

    * Flat-cut panels.

    * Shaped-panel camber.

    * Fanned sail, twist-induced camber.

    * Convex luff curve.

    * Gurney flaps.

    * Roping.

    * Stiff spars.

    * Bendy spars.

    * Mechanical spars (e.g., hinged battens).


    * Do you have any additions to the above categories or elements within them?

    * Are there sailplans which interest you that are not currently covered at the current JRA Sailplan location?

    * Can you help with this project? If so, what do you have in mind?

    * If you are experienced with a particular sailplan or approach, would you be willing to work toward its documentation?

    * Can you provide or point to specific information or materials for this project?

    * Would you be open to conducting research? If so, are you willing to summarize results?

    * Would you be open to requests to handle specific tasks?
    Last modified: 28 Nov 2013 10:02 | Deleted user
  • 17 Nov 2013 08:26
    Reply # 1439951 on 1418539
    Deleted user
    Lesley Verbrugge wrote:...create a collaborative document for others to build on / or ?...

    RE collaborative documents
    -- I had some interaction with OpenSourceEcology (My contribution to the Global Village Construction Set), who set up their open source collaborative environment on a Wiki platform, similar to that also used by Wikipedia.

    I was quite impressed with the wiki environment, though I only participated at the contributor level (not the administrative level... local rather than global).

    Through simple, easy to learn mechanisms, it allows any (authorized) person to add and/or edit material, while automatically recording history and rationales of changes. Moving forward is enabled, while the occasional false turn is easily corrected.

    Seems to me that many of the JRA Member's Projects and archival bases could benefit from the wiki approach. It's a way to 'slice the salami thinly' (as Lesley so strikingly put it in another post), allowing many move the project forward in small bit(e)s.

    Dave Z
    Last modified: 17 Nov 2013 08:55 | Deleted user
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