Sheet to tiller self steering, windvanes, and autopilots

  • 26 Nov 2016 23:45
    Reply # 4412855 on 1493031
    I was just looking on the Jester Challenge website and came across an interesting item.  John Letcher has allowed his book to be downloaded, for personal use only and you can do so from the website.
  • 24 Jun 2016 07:53
    Reply # 4095556 on 4095256
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:

    I wonder if there's some instability caused by the turning of the boat driving the servo blade - have you seen this happening? If the boat is yawing, the servo blade - being outboard will 'feel' that yaw and might rotate in response, further driving the helm. ?

    The servo blade, feeling a yaw, tries to work against it and damp it. That's the very big plus that the servo pendulum has over all other types of control surface. Ironically, though, if the servo blade is overbalanced, this effect will be increased. The problem is that it will over-correct. An overbalanced servo blade is trying to throw itself right out to the end of its stroke, and then as the vane finally gets enough incidence on, and manages to turn it, right out to the other end of its stroke.
  • 24 Jun 2016 00:21
    Reply # 4095256 on 4095150
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:
    As well as removing the vane, did you also untie the primary linkage, so that the lead weight is not centralising the servo blade?  

    Groan... THAT's why I ask - not only am I light on knowledge and experience but I overlook the blindingly obvious. You're quite right; I forgot about the vane balance weight and hence I haven't established that the servo blade is stable. Thanks, I'll sit in the corner with the pointy hat on for half an hour...

    ...getting the period of oscillation of the boat out of sync with the period of oscillation of the vane gear, and avoiding over-rotating the balanced spade rudder. 

    I wonder if there's some instability caused by the turning of the boat driving the servo blade - have you seen this happening? If the boat is yawing, the servo blade - being outboard will 'feel' that yaw and might rotate in response, further driving the helm. ?

    ...move the steering ropes forward along the tiller, so that you get less helm angle as the pendulum swings. This will address the last two items, and is what we had to do on Blondie's Pilmer  to get the Hasler SP pendulum gear to function without oversteering - balanced spade rudder again.

    It 'feels' (the worst kind of empirical engineering) like an instability problem so I'll try the servo blade stability before looking at the rudder ratio. Self-steering is a great engineering exercise and not as simple as it seems at first blush. Thanks David.


  • 23 Jun 2016 23:05
    Reply # 4095150 on 4095063
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:Thanks David and Annie. Unfortunately I've had to return to Christchurch to deal with post-earthquake issues, but I did number of tests before returning:
    • The oar has stabiltiy; it trails centrally with the vane removed. If disturbed from its stable, central position it will gently but positively return to centre.
    As well as removing the vane, did you also untie the primary linkage, so that the lead weight is not centralising the servo blade?
    • The boat can be readily steered with very light pressures by rotating the vane hub by hand with the vane removed.
    • The vane is also stable. With the the lines to the oar removed it also returns to an upright position when disturbed.
    • There is some motion in the blocks on the vane-to-oar lines, but it's minimal.
    • Wanda-the-windvane only wanders when the wind is aft of beam. She does this with the lines as tight as seems reasonable. The degree of wandering depends on conditions, but say <10 degrees on a beam reach to perhaps 50 degrees on a run.
    • When running, once the vane begins to tumble the tiller begins to move and the boat begins to turn... the vane tumbles further, the tiller moves further, the boat turns further... the vane reaches its maximum tilt and begins to return to upright; the tiller reaches maximum throw and begins to return; the boat begins to straighten... the vane, tiller and boat pass through their 'centres' with little if any stability, and the process repeats on the opposite tack.
    • The system is beautifully stable when going to windward.
    It occurs to me that if the boat yaws, the oar may sense this and may respond by moving. If any yaw-induced motion is detected by the self-steering it will be in a co-operative sense as far as corrections are concerned if the wind is forward of the beam and contrary when the wind is aft. If that makes any sense?


    Most boats and their steering form stable systems when going to windward, as witnessed by the fact that just lashing the helm is enough to hold a course - until the wind changes in strength. What you're describing when off the wind, is classic rhythmic oversteer, because the boat and steering are unstable, just like a weight suspended on a spring oscillating, and continuing to oscillate, because there is little damping supplied by the air it's in. If you've eliminated friction, and backlash/lost motion, then the further factors to consider are inertia (we can't do much to improve things there, the vane is already pretty light), getting the period of oscillation of the boat out of sync with the period of oscillation of the vane gear, and avoiding over-rotating the balanced spade rudder. 

    If you're certain that the servo blade is not overbalanced (I'm not - see my note above), the next thing you could try is to move the steering ropes forward along the tiller, so that you get less helm angle as the pendulum swings. This will address the last two items, and is what we had to do on Blondie's Pilmer  to get the Hasler SP pendulum gear to function without oversteering - balanced spade rudder again. You could add more balance weight to the vane, but this would make the gear dull in light airs, and would be a bad "fix".

    The geometry of pendulum servo that you have, with its power axis at 45 degrees, is about as good as you can get for coping with this kind of rudder. I'm surprised that you're getting oversteer, and and although my memory is hazy, I don't think the vane gear did it initially - something's changed. We just have to establish what it is.

  • 23 Jun 2016 22:04
    Reply # 4095063 on 1493031
    Deleted user
    Thanks David and Annie. Unfortunately I've had to return to Christchurch to deal with post-earthquake issues, but I did number of tests before returning:
    • The oar has stabiltiy; it trails centrally with the vane removed. If disturbed from its stable, central position it will gently but positively return to centre.
    • The boat can be readily steered with very light pressures by rotating the vane hub by hand with the vane removed.
    • The vane is also stable. With the the lines to the oar removed it also returns to an upright position when disturbed.
    • There is some motion in the blocks on the vane-to-oar lines, but it's minimal.
    • Wanda-the-windvane only wanders when the wind is aft of beam. She does this with the lines as tight as seems reasonable. The degree of wandering depends on conditions, but say <10 degrees on a beam reach to perhaps 50 degrees on a run.
    • When running, once the vane begins to tumble the tiller begins to move and the boat begins to turn... the vane tumbles further, the tiller moves further, the boat turns further... the vane reaches its maximum tilt and begins to return to upright; the tiller reaches maximum throw and begins to return; the boat begins to straighten... the vane, tiller and boat pass through their 'centres' with little if any stability, and the process repeats on the opposite tack.
    • The system is beautifully stable when going to windward.
    It occurs to me that if the boat yaws, the oar may sense this and may respond by moving. If any yaw-induced motion is detected by the self-steering it will be in a co-operative sense as far as corrections are concerned if the wind is forward of the beam and contrary when the wind is aft. If that makes any sense?


  • 23 Jun 2016 21:55
    Reply # 4095058 on 4094988
    Annie Hill wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:Did Annie perhaps recover the vane and not adjust the balance weight? 
    No, she didn't.  When I re-covered the vane, I added extra lead.
    Good, that's one thing eliminated. So I reckon the likely cause of oversteering is overbalance and/or friction in the rudder and/or the servo blade. Both of them need to self centre, if deflected and then released.
  • 23 Jun 2016 21:23
    Reply # 4094988 on 4092676
    David Tyler wrote:Did Annie perhaps recover the vane and not adjust the balance weight? 
    No, she didn't.  When I re-covered the vane, I added extra lead.
  • 23 Jun 2016 07:20
    Reply # 4092676 on 1493031

    Bryan, the first thing I'd want to check is that the servo blade is not warped or overbalanced. With the power axis at 45 degrees, wild rhythmic oversteer ought to be an impossibility, unless there is lost motion in the primary linkage (at those small blocks at the bottom of the vertical part of the primary linkage) or the vane is pushing against no resistance. The vane axis is inclined at 15 degrees, so far as I remember, so that should be OK. All that remains is that the servo blade is not as it should be. Try disconnecting the primary linkage lines and steering by hand holding the little servo tiller that the primary linkage connects to. It should mildly self-centre at all times, and there should not be an appreciable amount of friction. 

    You could also check that the vane has not got top-heavy. It should return to vertical, even when wet. Did Annie perhaps recover the vane and not adjust the balance weight? 

    Last modified: 23 Jun 2016 21:55 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Jun 2016 03:45
    Reply # 4092515 on 1498736
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:
    Annie Hill wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:
    I've made a folder "Vane Gears" in my Google Drive and into it, I've copied the drawing of the vane gear that Annie and I made for Fantail, and also a drawing that I started, incorporating the best features of the gears on Tystie and Fantail
    I love my windvane gear and use it heaps.  It's ideal for sailing out my anchor and sails to windward far better than I do, once I lose concentration.  However, I have to say that it's very squirrelly once the wind is on the quarter or further aft.  Admittedly, I do largely coastal sailing where wandering off course is much more obivous than it is offshore, but if you are thinking of making these plans available, we should do a bit more to see if I can improve this.  I confess to using the autopilot in these conditions.

    Fantail will blast along at 7 knots with the wind abaft the beam, but it's too much for either self-steering gear and, frankly, too much for me.  I usually start reefing at about the middle of F4 and 'amble' along at 5+kt.  But the windvane still complains.  Fantail is light on the helm unless she is over-canvassed. 
    Annie, I suspect that you're getting some lost motion somewhere in the gear, as the configuration should give absolutely straight-arrow steering. That is, the lines tight enough (but not so tight as to bind), and all fixed parts of the gear rigidly fixed. I recall that we needed to rig a beam athwartships, on which to mount the lines that go to the tiller, and this was initially just a lash-up to see that it worked. Did it ever get firmly fixed in place?
    I'm pleased to find this as I'm wanting to sort this out. As Annie says, if the wind is forward of the beam the gear works magnificently. With the wind is aft of beam, the gear steers sways the boat in a serious of wild, rapid scallops. The problem isn't lost motion; the tiller is responding perfectly to the vane signals. The vane goes hard over as soon as the boat is slightly off the set course. It returns the tiller to centre as it should as soon as the vane is centred, but the boat oversteers just a nudge, causing the vane to go hard over in the other direction, and so the cycle goes. It looks as if the vane needs damping, perhaps by introducing some form of negative feedback, or perhaps the gain of the system needs reducing when the wind is from behind. 

    I'm wondering if inclining either the course setting axis or the vane turning axis would help. Presumably the more the vertical the vane axis is brought the less inclined the system will be to over-respond?

  • 27 Dec 2015 14:10
    Reply # 3720590 on 1493031

    Safest bet still the windpilot pacific on a corribee or coromandel?

    Looking at Mr Vane too as it is local and seems to be able to be tweaked to a MingMing llike "operate-at-some-distance" mode too.

    http://windvaneselfsteering.com/Windvane-self-steering-from-Mister-Vee

    Last modified: 28 Dec 2015 10:51 | Anonymous member
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